I think this Political Cartoon says a lot.

"Suicide of Western Civilization"

Quote from: quiktaco on November 14, 2008, 02:31:42 PM
I think this Political Cartoon says a lot.

can't see the image 

your not missing anything

This was something I found very interesting.  It shows, based on the issues, who you should have voted for.  From ABC news...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/MatchoMatic/fullpage?id=5542139

Here are my results...there's no way to cheat, either.  Just choose what you agree with.  Only takes about 5 minutes.  Post your results

Quote from: frankieG on November 16, 2008, 12:42:50 PM
your not missing anything

i expect youd reply as such 

get over it, you  lost...why can't you guys be gracious in defeat?  instead y'all are just spouting bile while this country is burning because "your guy" is the worst president ever.   history is not going to be very kind to lil bush.   obama is going to soar like an eagle because he is being compared to a turkey lol.

Quote from: frankieG on November 18, 2008, 10:29:54 AM
get over it, you  lost...why can't you guys be gracious in defeat?  instead y'all are just spouting bile while this country is burning because "your guy" is the worst president ever.   history is not going to be very kind to lil bush.   obama is going to soar like an eagle because he is being compared to a turkey lol.

Who said Bush is 'our guy'.  He sucked as a president.  Mostly from all of his Liberal Socialistic Behaviors.  McCain would have been better, but he still is very Liberal for my tastes.

Just cause the Election is over, doesn't mean that any discussion of this sort has to be over.  These are all strong issues and topics that envelop our lives at all times, not just during the election.

Obama isn't going to soar for long.  Yes, right now he is, and probably for the first few months, but he will crash into the side of a cliff, once he goes after what he really wants to accomplish in office.

Frankie, and TrumpetGuy, I would like to know what your ideal governments are.  What types of programs, how much control, what you'd add, what you'd do away with.  And in general, how it would be run; Senate, House, and President per say.

wow great questions about what our "ideal" government would be.  boy just off the top of my head.    it would have to deal aggressively with the economic emergency that we have now.   how to do that is much  more complicated than my BBA qualifies me for.  i would say that a tax freeze on those with 250k or less.  a tax increase to those over 250k.  cut many of the tax loop holes for larger business but keep them in place for the mom and pops.   them comes the decrease in spending.  we can not get out of a deficit in these circumstances but we can redirect the money.  pull the troops from Iraq, close gitmo, cut military spending.  cut spending on spooks and other black ops and security measures which are just out of control.   national security would no longer be the fear mongering it has been for the last 8 years.  the economy would be #1 by a long shot.  eventually voter reform is going to be needed and it should begin with setting up a committee and making a department specifically for federal elections.  oops i got off track. back to the economy.  CEO's, CFO's and other directors must be held financially and legally liable for their companies.  right now a company is a legal entity like a human and subject to such rights.  this is just foolishness.  a company is not a human and this needs to be changed.  standard accounting practises need eliminate the "profit only" policy.  while it makes sense for a company to want making a profit its main target it does not make sense to burn down the house whilst doing so.  we need to change the SAP to reflect that.   liberalism in not suicide for western civilization...just the opposite..it was liberalism that brought western civilization to what he have now.  it is neo conservatism and unabashed capitalism that is killing us.  without liberalism we would still be under the shackles of a monarchy.   our founding fathers were liberals way ahead of their time.  Ben Franklin is a very good example of liberalism and its workings.  capitalism works in the same way communism does...which is it does not work.  it breaks the backs of the common man.   as communism fell we are seeing the collapse of neo capitalism.  which i am thankful for.   we can have a left of center capitalist society that takes care of its citizens and rewards the innovators that bring new ideas and products to our society.   a working class is the backbone of any society, if you bankrupt the middle class,  drown them in debt for what ever reason or they are not healthy then we and our system are doomed.   we need to keep our citizens healthy, happy, well fed, well paid and with the prospect of a bright future and comfortable retirement.  right now health care is the wrench in all of this.   health care must be a federal responsibility with the co operation of the states that is paid for with our taxes.   with a broad brush the HMO's will still be in business and make money.  however the citizens of our great nation will be covered without fear of debt or bankruptcy.  we won't forgo a trip to the hospital because we can't afford it or it will make our premiums go up.  this is going to be a huge uphill battle since HMO's are used to raking in profits hand over fist.  this can not continue.  it is wrong and it is anti social.  it is bound for collapse.   citizens will not be able to afford their care or to buy the insurance.  then they will be ill and unable to work.  this will cause financial collapse and the citizen becomes a ward of the state or dead.  either way we lose out.  either way the state pays for it.  it only makes sense to have universal health care that leads to universally healthy workers that can live the American dream.   America is the only g-8 country that just does not seem to get that.   it is all about money and keeping it in the pockets of the HMO's.   our new "fantasy" government would deal with health care directly. 

Quote from: frankieG on November 18, 2008, 11:17:29 AM
wow great questions about what our "ideal" government would be.  boy just off the top of my head.   

it would have to deal aggressively with the economic emergency that we have now.   how to do that is much  more complicated than my BBA qualifies me for.  i would say that a tax freeze on those with 250k or less.  a tax increase to those over 250k.  cut many of the tax loop holes for larger business but keep them in place for the mom and pops. 

There's a lot to reply to here.  Thank you for taking the time to respond to that question.  This really helps with insight into what you're thinking.

I agree that the economy has to be dealt with right now.  However, I believe that the government needs to deal with it, by getting their hands out of it.  Cause right when the house of cards starts to be rebuilt a little, Mr. Government comes by and blows a whole lot of hot air at the issue, and the cards all fall to the ground.

A tax freeze, and increase on different incomes is completely opposite from my beliefs.  For being completely for equality and equal opportunity, why are you so lopsided on something like this?  Wouldn't an even percentage be more fair?  Straight across the board.  That makes the ratio that you pay, to the amount you make even across the board.

And since Obama is going to be taxing anyone who makes 41.5k per year and higher, he's sure not going to be helping your taxing freeze.

Why would you allow loopholes for 'large mom and pops', but not allow them for 'large businesses'?  I believe that most of these loopholes are there, so that these businesses can make more profit, and in turn, employ more people, and pay those people more.  If the business makes a lot less, and is taxed more, then Business 101, says to pull back on employment, and freeze or cut unnecessary spending, including employees wages.

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them comes the decrease in spending.  we can not get out of a deficit in these circumstances but we can redirect the money.  pull the troops from Iraq, close gitmo, cut military spending.  cut spending on spooks and other black ops and security measures which are just out of control.   

I agree that spending needs to be cut dramatically.  However, military spending is not the right place.  Maybe in certain specific places it could be okay, but not in general.  Our strong military is the only reason why we are the biggest super power of the world.  It sure as hell isn't because of our top notch economy right now.

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national security would no longer be the fear mongering it has been for the last 8 years.  the economy would be #1 by a long shot. 

I think this is somewhat of an opinion.  The economy wouldn't be #1 just because of that.  We'd be more volnerable to terrorists, and the economy would suffer.  Remember just after 9/11?  The economy was very unsure, and people weren't doing much of anything.  Getting rid of or cutting funds from our National security would be inviting attacks.

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liberalism in not suicide for western civilization...just the opposite..it was liberalism that brought western civilization to what he have now.  it is neo conservatism and unabashed capitalism that is killing us.  without liberalism we would still be under the shackles of a monarchy.   our founding fathers were liberals way ahead of their time.  Ben Franklin is a very good example of liberalism and its workings.  capitalism works in the same way communism does...which is it does not work.  it breaks the backs of the common man.   as communism fell we are seeing the collapse of neo capitalism.  which i am thankful for.   

These are opinions as well.  I would like to know how you think capitalism is what is killing us.  I think most people would disagree.

In part, the founding fathers were liberal, but in a different way.  The founding fathers were Christians, trying to escape to the new world for religious freedom.  Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that consider individual liberty to be the most important political goal.  They also believed in complete free trade, which does align with some Liberals.  But you already expressed that you want to regulate large businesses, and take away their wealth.  This idea is held by some liberals, but Franklin was not one of them.

[Franklin] recognized that government does not have the foresight to regulate commerce.
(http://www.freeliberal.com/archives/001970.html)

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we can have a left of center capitalist society that takes care of its citizens and rewards the innovators that bring new ideas and products to our society.   a working class is the backbone of any society, if you bankrupt the middle class,  drown them in debt for what ever reason or they are not healthy then we and our system are doomed.   

I don't mean anything by this, but this almost sounds like Hitler.  These ideals aren't really 'bad', but how you implement them, can be bad.

I think your left of center capitalist society would contain governmental control over business.

Capitalists don't want the middle class to be bankrupt.  We believe that capitalism gives everyone the opportunity to become the most of what they can be.  If I can supply a product or service at a lower rate than someone else, then I have succeeded. 

There is a lot of corruption that occurs in big business, because there is a lot of money floating around.  I am all for cleaning up this corruption. 

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we need to keep our citizens healthy, happy, well fed, well paid and with the prospect of a bright future and comfortable retirement.  right now health care is the wrench in all of this.   health care must be a federal responsibility with the co operation of the states that is paid for with our taxes.   with a broad brush the HMO's will still be in business and make money. 

I agree that this would be a good thing, but supplying the citizens with healthcare, food, a bright future, and a comfortable retirement, when some of them choose to do nothing with their lives, is not a good thing.  That, however, is what makes this country great.  If you want to do nothing with your life, then you can.  If you want to make something of yourself, and work hard, then you WILL keep yourself healthy, because you'll be able to afford insurance.  You WILL be able to be happy, because you are being worthwhile to society.  You WILL keep yourself as fed as you want.  You WILL be paid well, because you will fight for that promotion.  You WILL have a bright future, because when you work hard, then you will always have a job.  And all this WILL lead to a comfortable retirement.

If you think that health care is the wrench in all this, then you must not have good healthcare.  I have good healthcare.  I worked hard, went to college, got a good job, and they provide healthcare at a reduced rate.  That's what I get for working hard.

Government run healthcare, will be like going to the DMV when you need treatment.  It won't turn out good.  Plus Obama will probably require 10 hours of community service to get a prescription.

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however the citizens of our great nation will be covered without fear of debt or bankruptcy.  we won't forgo a trip to the hospital because we can't afford it or it will make our premiums go up.  this is going to be a huge uphill battle since HMO's are used to raking in profits hand over fist.  this can not continue.  it is wrong and it is anti social.  it is bound for collapse.   citizens will not be able to afford their care or to buy the insurance.  then they will be ill and unable to work.  this will cause financial collapse and the citizen becomes a ward of the state or dead.  either way we lose out.  either way the state pays for it. 

I'd agree that corruption needs to be dealt with within HMO's and other care providers, and also the prescription drug market.

Especially like Michelle Obama being on the board for a hospital who charged more to patients who didn't have insurance, than to those who did.  Those people should be sent to prison.

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it only makes sense to have universal health care that leads to universally healthy workers that can live the American dream.   America is the only g-8 country that just does not seem to get that.   it is all about money and keeping it in the pockets of the HMO's.   our new "fantasy" government would deal with health care directly.

It makes more since to not have universal healthcare.  A competing market will keep the prices lower, and provide better care.

Just remember, you get what you pay for...or in Universal Healthcare's case, you get what you don't pay for.  Crap.




I know this has been a long response, but I'd also like to know what other government programs would you add or subtract from the Federal government.  Such as ATF, or the war against drugs.  Welfare, or how to deal with it.  Environment.  Whatever

i am just wasting my time to respond. you are set in your ways.  we have different upbringings, experience and education. it is not unexpected for use to think differently.

Quote from: frankieG on November 18, 2008, 01:15:40 PM
i am just wasting my time to respond. you are set in your ways.  we have different upbringings, experience and education. it is not unexpected for use to think differently.

I agree

"At this point, Supreme Court Justice David Souter's Clerk informed Philip J. Berg, the lawyer who brought the case against Obama, that his petition for an injunction to stay the November 4th election was denied, but the Clerk also required the defendants to respond to the Writ of Certiorari (which requires the concurrence of four Justices) by December 1. At that time, Mr. Obama must present to the Court an authentic birth certificate, after which Mr. Berg will respond.

If Obama fails to do that, it is sure to inspire the skepticism of the Justices, who are unaccustomed to being defied. They will have to decide what to do about a president-elect who refuses to prove his natural-born citizenship.

"I can see a unanimous Court (en banc) decertifying the election if Obama refuses to produce his birth certificate," says Raymond S. Kraft, an attorney and writer. "They cannot do otherwise without abandoning all credibility as guardians of the Constitution. Even the most liberal justices, however loathe they may to do this, still consider themselves guardians of the Constitution. The Court is very jealous of its power - even over presidents, even over presidents-elect."

Also remember that on December 13, the Electoral College meets to casts its votes. If it has been determined that Mr. Obama is an illegal alien and therefore ineligible to become President of the United States, the Electors will be duty-bound to honor the Constitution."

at which point we f%$king start this whole election process over again???         

All he has to do is produce the certified copy to the Court.

No we won't hace to do this all over again this is just a desperate tin-foil conspiracy theorist too many television shows like CSI watching tom foolery attempt to sideline Obama.

Basically it's just another hoop he has to jump through.

Jesus the elections over already.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html&usg=__t4fbWb-K_rd7uMtUaejcvTGkSrA=&h=3072&w=2304&sz=1257&hl=en&start=18&sig2=dwGHxXgpBiBFC-uqdB9Njg&um=1&tbnid=x00dHw4lpHtxDM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=113&ei=Z9YlSYXwJJeu8QSo68n8Dw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dobama%2Bbirth%2Bcertificate%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*%26sa%3DN

thanks for the link BP.   

so his fathers name is the same as his?, ill be damned, but ty for link bp

The thing is, that's a 'Certification' of live Birth.  That's not the same thing as a 'Certificate' of Birth.  There is a difference.

Why would Obama let Factcheck have a copy of this document, but he refuses to supply any court with a copy?  Something is weird there.  If he turns out to be a true Natural-Born Citizen, then fine, but the people have a right to know, and it hasn't been proven one way or the other, with to whom and of what has been supplied as evidence.

He has till December something to supply the Supreme Court with the real document.  If he is found to not be a citizen, but the electoral college votes him in anyways, then by law, no one has to obey anything that he says.

i await teh courts decision, and obamas decision as well. ill reserve my comments until then

^^^ QT, Yama, you 2 are card holding members of the tin foil hat club aren't you?

The elections over the certificate is valid, we need to focus on the mid term elections now. We are dangerously close to being saddled with a fillibuster prooof senate controlled by the Libs, need to see what happens in the Georgia rtun off elections. No big surprise we lost the alaskan senate seat, even if he had won the Republicans would have refused to seat steeves because of his conviction.

I'm not wrapped up an a conspiracy theory, I just want proof that he is eligible, which until he provides a REAL Birth Certificate, not a Certification of Birth, then it is still not proven.

I agree, that the new congress will be horrible if it's nearly filibuster proof, but I can't personally do anything about that.  If Obama isn't eligible, then that solves those problems (to a degree).

I'm with yama, and just awaiting the courts decision.  I hope he isn't, but I doubt it...it's just really weird why he won't present a real one to the courts.  And also, why a federal level lawsuit that's in the supreme court, against the president-elect, isn't even in the news.

I was just posting the fact that this case hit the supreme court.