OK, flipping through google news this morning, I see the 2010 Cadillac being promoted. I thought, hey, let's see how that massive amount of money tossed to GM has started changing things.

Here is what I saw:



and of course what gm considers the 'base' model with a different brand on the hood:



Sure, GM, we know they're not the same vehicle - wink wink. We know you're not going to build it in mexico, import it and the puff out your chest shouting " BUY 'MERICAN ! BUY GM ! NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND IN A CADILLLAC ! "

Hello ? Remember the 80's when re-badging a cavalier as a caddy didn't work so well ? Remember the last 5 years how Lexus trampled Cadillac sales ? TRAMPLED ?

Great job GM ! Way to change with the times and not be a burden on the tax paying public ! Thanks for pouring millions of dollars into making yet another overpriced, under achieving, will-never-sell SUV !

Let's give a big hoo-rah for thinking !

so its not been released yet and you already know its under ahcieving? please let me know how you figured this out, sorry man i didnt mean to be an ass

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on January 04, 2009, 05:10:37 AM
so its not been released yet and you already know its under ahcieving? please let me know how you figured this out, sorry man i didnt mean to be an ass

i didn't take it that way man. look at the past, look at their current financial status, and look what has changed. nothing. not a damned thing. and you're now paying for the junk with your taxes.

i know it, and will be doing so for the forseeable future. even teh almighty obama cant get us out iof this one  [/jest]this econ problems is 30 years in teh making

Yeah... Thats not exactly a new trend. Rebadging is the least of their problems. To me, it makes sense to use the same powertrain on multiple vehicals. Engineer one that works good instead of several that work crappy.

Do either of them look like somthing I want to buy? Heck No

Hey Ohgood, it's GM.  Whaddya expect?   

We gave GM and Chrysler together less than we spend in two months in Iraq.  And about 2 percent of what we gave to the banking industry with virtually no oversight.

Just to add a little perspective.  

I'm not defending ANY bailouts but let's not get our panties in a knot over 2% of it.

And besides all that, the product development cycle is probably a shade over 30 days  .  They have to sell what they have in the pipeline now to survive before they can change ANYTHING.

Exactly TG, with NO oversight. that will be a problem. that is guaranteed 

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on January 04, 2009, 05:37:15 AM
i know it, and will be doing so for the forseeable future. even teh almighty obama cant get us out iof this one  [/jest]this econ problems is 30 years in teh making

no comment on the politi-speak

Quote from: Weston on January 04, 2009, 02:02:47 PM
Yeah... Thats not exactly a new trend. Rebadging is the least of their problems. To me, it makes sense to use the same powertrain on multiple vehicals. Engineer one that works good instead of several that work crappy.

Do either of them look like somthing I want to buy? Heck No

using the same powertrain on 4-5 vehicles means 4-5 times the marketing for those SEPERATE brands. not a good way to market one car. this has been proven over and over also. the engineering side, yes, the actual selling side, big no no.

seems like honda and toyota got it figured out: different trim levels, same name. oh, and for people that really want to spend more - acura or lexus ! (nothing against them personally)

Quote from: GeeP on January 04, 2009, 07:05:45 PM
Hey Ohgood, it's GM.  Whaddya expect?  

where's that "forehead slap" emoticon again ? (i've really got to unblock emoticons in safari someday and see what i'm missing )

Quote from: trumpetguy on January 04, 2009, 07:06:03 PM
We gave GM and Chrysler together less than we spend in two months in Iraq.  And about 2 percent of what we gave to the banking industry with virtually no oversight.

Just to add a little perspective.  

I'm not defending ANY bailouts but let's not get our panties in a knot over 2% of it.

And besides all that, the product development cycle is probably a shade over 30 days  .  They have to sell what they have in the pipeline now to survive before they can change ANYTHING.

yessire, i'd like to see -that- money spent locally instead of going nowhere - right with you there.

the 2% is still allot of cash, in my tiny bit of the world.

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on January 04, 2009, 11:46:47 PM
Exactly TG, with NO oversight. that will be a problem. that is guaranteed 

unfortunately, you're right. the only 'teeth' in the plan that i've read so far:

the amount must be paid back in full by march 3rd (2009) if GM is not profitable. (ya, RIGHT !!)
the executives and shareholders will not be paid from the bailout money. (ya RIGHT !)

how does one pay back a loan that they needed in order to stay in business again ?

government stupidity + tons of money = fail


on a positive note, it's not raining cats and dogs, so i may just get to ride my gs to work for the first time in forever 

Quoteusing the same powertrain on 4-5 vehicles means 4-5 times the marketing for those SEPERATE brands. not a good way to market one car. this has been proven over and over also. the engineering side, yes, the actual selling side, big no no. Smiley

IMHO here we should make a distinction between using the same underpinnings for two or more vehicles - which can lead to good scale economies, provided the components and the final assembly are reliable and well-matched - and badge-engineering pure and simple, which - IMHO again - can lead to customers' disorientation and product devaluation. (anyone remember British Leyland?)
Example, I see nothing bad in marketing, say, the GM Astra as the Vauxhall Astra in UK and as Opel Astra elsewhere, provided Vauxhall and Opel models are NOT sold alongside in the same place.

Seems like they did a rather good job with these two GM SUV siblings.

...But then again, how may drivers really need an SUV?
Sure, there may be some, but not as many as car companies would like to think (or to make us think).

Quotethe amount must be paid back in full by march 3rd (2009) if GM is not profitable. (ya, RIGHT !!)
the executives and shareholders will not be paid from the bailout money. (ya RIGHT !)

As I recall, they have until the end of March to submit a viable plan to become profitable. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

I think the American taxpayer ought to be far more concerned over the financial industry handout. So far, AIG alone has been handed 10X the cash that will be loaned to GM. Nobody seems to know what they are doing with the proceeds. Where's the oversite? Was this whole financial bailout scheme just a parting gift to the wealthy?

Quote from: gearman on January 05, 2009, 04:46:32 PM

Quotethe amount must be paid back in full by march 3rd (2009) if GM is not profitable. (ya, RIGHT !!)
the executives and shareholders will not be paid from the bailout money. (ya RIGHT !)

As I recall, they have until the end of March to submit a viable plan to become profitable. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

I think the American taxpayer ought to be far more concerned over the financial industry handout. So far, AIG alone has been handed 10X the cash that will be loaned to GM. Nobody seems to know what they are doing with the proceeds. Where's the oversite? Was this whole financial bailout scheme just a parting gift to the wealthy?

ahh, so what i read was incorrect. it's a deadline to produce a -plan-. agreed, the money is going everywhere, but i'm afraid your assumption of where exactly is right on.

it would be quite interesting if gmac was the lending arm i decided to use when rates drop to <4% on home mortgages. assuming they will.

i thiink the auto industry got shafted in it's loan. look how much we handed the banks...with not promise, or clause or deadline to either pay it back or come up with a viable plan to ensure it doesn't happen again?     GM and Chrysler got what, 14 billion vs just AIG alone getting 85 billion. with nothing to show for it i might add.

jserio - AIG is at 150 billion+ and counting.

I actually have a serious question. I understand all the pain of bringing a new car through production from scratch when paradigm shifts.

Today gas hits 5 bucks and every one is ready to toss the SUV out like an old shoe and buy a Prickus. 2 months later gas hits 1.50 and people are sick of this econo ugly tacky and slow shoebox of a car that can barely fit them and the 1 kid (the 300lb 6th grader). OK GM makes suburban, and then the consumer wants a match box and they say wait 3 years. I get that.

However GM made a geo metro from 90-96 and then made it a chevy metro starting in 97 and made it through 2001 or 02 right. Why not dust its dies off and crank out the old Metro with Bold new graphics. That oughtta take a lot less than 3 years.

That way dealers can shaft the customer both ways. Trade the Suburban in for the metro with only 10K financed on the metro, then 3 months later trade the metro back for the suburban with just 10K tacked on. Essentially the dealer makes 10K, financed into the system with the loser beign the customer who's plonked 20K on a 10% note for the suburban, which they had just 3 months ago. The extra benifit is that, the 20K will be used to help AIG or other banks. Get this, depreciating cars dont make people let them get repoed. That is expected. Depreciating houses do. Many many people default on their houses without defaulting on cars or credit cards. With that they expect the shaft.

Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: The Buddha on January 07, 2009, 10:04:42 AM
However GM made a geo metro from 90-96 and then made it a chevy metro starting in 97 and made it through 2001 or 02 right. Why not dust its dies off and crank out the old Metro with Bold new graphics. That oughtta take a lot less than 3 years.

Suzuki made the metro. GM just put there name on it.

Yea, OK but like some crap they made must have been small and efficient in the last 10 years ?
Or, cant they get the suzuki clowns to make it again and slap metro on it again.
I am just trying to see if that 3 year design window cant be improved, as well as the cost of bringing it to market.
In the past some extraordinary cars have been made, and those have now been either killed or significantly changed while being badged the same. I just want some of that back on the roads - maybe it will revive the dying car makers cos they can bring it on cheap and quick and sell it and stay in business.
Maybe I'm being naive, I am still dreaming these detroit companies will be viable some day. Maybe they should make motorcycles. Maybe make busses. Or trains, though trains are junk, they wont work in US. The low speed light rain or metro (underground like NYC) may work, but unlike in Japan intercity commutes - dont happen quite on a vast scignificant role was the fact that there weren't ale in US. Mainly a huge difference in paradigm between the 2. There people were very very committed to their house and didn't want to move, and their work places are very very committed to them making most employment life long. Also playing a significant role is the culture in the US that literally demands time with family (or is it a fear that the wife will be wandering if they dont ?). Anyway ... doubt a 300 mph train running intercity in the US is going to make sense.
Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: The Buddha on January 07, 2009, 11:28:42 AM
Yea, OK but like some crap they made must have been small and efficient in the last 10 years ?
Or, cant they get the suzuki clowns to make it again and slap metro on it again.
I am just trying to see if that 3 year design window cant be improved, as well as the cost of bringing it to market.
In the past some extraordinary cars have been made, and those have now been either killed or significantly changed while being badged the same. I just want some of that back on the roads - maybe it will revive the dying car makers cos they can bring it on cheap and quick and sell it and stay in business.
Maybe I'm being naive, I am still dreaming these detroit companies will be viable some day. Maybe they should make motorcycles. Maybe make busses. Or trains, though trains are junk, they wont work in US. The low speed light rain or metro (underground like NYC) may work, but unlike in Japan intercity commutes - dont happen quite on a vast scignificant role was the fact that there weren't ale in US. Mainly a huge difference in paradigm between the 2. There people were very very committed to their house and didn't want to move, and their work places are very very committed to them making most employment life long. Also playing a significant role is the culture in the US that literally demands time with family (or is it a fear that the wife will be wandering if they dont ?). Anyway ... doubt a 300 mph train running intercity in the US is going to make sense.
Cool.
Buddha.

one thing- profit margins.

that, and the time-honored tradition of undocumented fixes. manufacturing has crutched upon undocumented fixes, leeway tolerances, and 'hope it fits' for so long that re-tooling for a no longer made car would be near impossible. given the tiny fraction of procedural practices at GM / Delco I've seen, i'd bet it IS impossible for them.

I cant see how the new bloody chevy aveo or whatever crap they got is any better than the metro of old. If they slapped a bright red paint job on it and called it some other crap, like super micro metropolitan hy-car I'm sure the clueless clowns that buy this crap will love it. If they made that thing cheaper they could pocket the difference.
I dunno, I made 2 weld bars only to have my clown ass welder re use the jig for some other BS. Maybe he works at GM. So My fat ass metal plate will now be the underside of a metro.
Cool.
Buddha.

buddha, gm sold their locomotive division a long time ago

gm makes such garbage
exhibit a, gmc canyon. what a piece of shaZam!. at our company we have a fleet of canyons and they go through rear drums twice as fast as front rotors. then we have to get drums and rotors from the dealer and they warp all the time.
exhibit b, chevy uplander. if the battery dies, good luck trying to fit jumper cables underneath the engine bay stablizier bar (wtf). its a pain in the ass.
exhibits c,d,e,f,g.... cavalier, old malibu, grand am, grand prix etc

there is a reason this company needed a bail out, they make shitty products (except their diesel trucks are kind of nice)

I think most things are designed and built by non users.

A car built by non drivers ... non mechanics, for sure.
I complain about 1000's of things all the time, anyone spending 2 mins in one of these will hate it.
Yes GS cars are crap, no doubt, never had chrysler, but Ford is a lot better IMHO. Ergo, they will make it if only just barely. But beyond cars ...

Example - Pants - almost none of the damn pants I buy now a days have a decent pocket set. Pockets are supposed to be wide enough that they cross over the crest of your leg so when you put stuff in the pocket and sit down, that stuff stays there, not fall under your butt.
Cardboard juice cartons - Who the F*(k thought of this. Add to it you cant tear the seal without spilling or otherwise having extremely good luck and its obvious it was made by someone who's never opened it.
Many many years ago, I was at an airline check in line and the lady there was putting my suit in their cardboard suit carrier. I stopped her and said I want to put it myself, and I stuck my whole arm through it - it didnt fit and I struggled to have her shove the hanger in from the bottom while I was trying to catch it and pull it up. She was muttering that she's put 100's of these in the box. I asked her, how many have you taken out of this box. She said ... oh ... none. Yea I didn't think so, I put one in last time I flew, and pulled it out and it was a crumpled disaster. Same crap but on a much much larger scale with everything in the damn world.

I just think the blind stimulus junk will keep the Idiots in business for far longer than they need to be. Who cares at the top, they dont wear store bought pants or drive or fix their own cars. They get chauffered and buy custom tailored pants.
Cool.
Buddha.