Having recently read a magazine article about clutchless upshifts, I decided to give it a go on a rideout today.

Surprisingly, it worked out to be pretty smooth and I'll be looking to use it more often. Generally getting the throttle timing for off and then back on wasn't too difficult.

One small fly in soup, so to speak, is that sometimes it doesn't happen. The feeling is one of trying to upshift in top gear. i.e. press upwards to resistance.
When this happens I revert to using the clutch.

But I'm wandering if there is a foolproof method of doing clutchless upshifts.

I've generally found that having over 4000 revs is a good starting point - would more be better / smoother.

 

what is the point in clutchless shifting if you have 2 good usable hands?

I dont really go the clutchless route much on the street because it doesnt gain too much,
however I can give some insight as I do it all the time on my dirtbike when racing.
reason is that it is much quicker and helps keep the bike wound up on the pipe.
of course being a 200 2 sroke and racing makes it a little different.
If I do a complete shift by pulling in the clutch shifting then releasing the clutch it takes longer and allows the engine to fall off the pipe and therefore I lose some pull from the engine.

So on the street where this doesnt matter there isnt much reason.

but what helps on the dirt bike is to just barely pull the clutch lever while applying pressure to the shifter and when it slips just enough it will go in.
that is the llast resort if I cant find the perfect rpm.
my dirt bike doesnt care and a rebuild would be cheap if it ever had an issue, again unless you were racing where every milisecond counted I am not sure I would do it to often

I only do it when im talking on my cell phone and holding a coffee with my clutch hand

 

Quote from: joshr08 on October 04, 2009, 07:29:53 AM
what is the point in clutchless shifting if you have 2 good usable hands?

With practice it can be smoother on the street and the track than if you had used the clutch.  I hardly ever use the clutch for upshifts anymore.

I also found another good reason.  Pin the throttle and try to shift fast with the clutch.  Watch the tach while you do this.  You might find the rpms jump up a couple hundred rpm between every shift since you might not roll the throttle completely off as fast as you can pull the clutch in.  The only times I ever heard valve float on my GS were during clutched upshifts.  At least that was my experience.  I don't know about other people, though.

Oh, and I'm lazy.  

Quote from: Rhed on October 04, 2009, 07:19:14 AM
Having recently read a magazine article about clutchless upshifts, I decided to give it a go on a rideout today.

Surprisingly, it worked out to be pretty smooth and I'll be looking to use it more often. Generally getting the throttle timing for off and then back on wasn't too difficult.

One small fly in soup, so to speak, is that sometimes it doesn't happen. The feeling is one of trying to upshift in top gear. i.e. press upwards to resistance.
When this happens I revert to using the clutch.

But I'm wandering if there is a foolproof method of doing clutchless upshifts.

I've generally found that having over 4000 revs is a good starting point - would more be better / smoother.

 

since you asked what the best success was for others, and not wether it was cool/not cool / whatever-

i've found it's easiest to put  a little pressure on the shifter with your big toe, just enough to feel the shifter's resistance; accellerate brisky (you don't need to pin the throttle) and very mildly release the throttle until it slips into the next gear.

it actually works better if i'm not pinning or redlining the engine. since we're talking about ratios that are very close together anyway, more lug (lower rpms) or more hp (near red line rpms) tend to make things sloppy, and risk an over-rev.

having the right oil viscocity and VOLUME seems to make a big difference too. had some 20w50 in a while back, and it wouldn't shift smoothly at all let alone clutchless until the engine was very warm. the volume may play something with it because of adding more resistance to changes, got me. i know if your bike is over filled getting into/out of 1st gear becomes a real PITA, so I'll assume it means the same for clutchless shifting.

so, summary:
proper oil level/flavor
proper hand modulation (ie, you're not WHACKING it into the next gear, you're schmoozing/coaxing her along)
practice, always practice

just don't do downshifts clutchless, it makes baby emos stronger.

Quote from: joshr08 on October 04, 2009, 07:29:53 AM
what is the point in clutchless shifting if you have 2 good usable hands?

_{'cus I'm playing with the Satnav, lookin' for change, using my phone etc.}

I find that I'm smoother without the clutch.  Once in a while I am not firm enough with my big toe.   

As you're accelerating and your revs are up, get your toe in position and ease off of the throttle just as you're making the shift.  Smooth like butta.

Quote from: Rhed on October 04, 2009, 07:19:14 AMBut I'm wandering if there is a foolproof method of doing clutchless upshifts.

I don't know how to describe it, and I'm not sure a description would help. If you've gotten as far as you have, it will come with experience. At first I was just doing it on track to speed up full throttle shifts, now I'm doing it most all the time on the street too (even 2-up) just because it's both faster and smoother, unless I'm not accelerating at all. Keep at it!  

Try using the clutchless method, but add a quick (not necessarily complete) pull of the clutch lever.  That's smooth things out and still leave you with a quick, non-jerky shift.

Does clutchless shifting danage the engine in any way?

No idea, but this thread inspired me to try this today...

After quite a few shifts this way, I have mixed feelings.  It may be simpler, but I don't feel like I am shifting any faster than if I pulled the clutch (riding with faster bikes will help you shift quickly ).  Also, I noticed that sometimes the bike would jerk forward a bit on gear engagement.

Pretty easy technique though (I used RGal's technique/advice)... however I don't recommend doing it until you are very smooth with the traditional shifting method.

I only upshift without the clutch when the cable is broken and I have to get home, but I agree with roadstergal.  It's all about the timing.  If you get off the gas and shift at the same time it goes right in, "smooth like butta", as she said.  In fact, during moments when you have no load on the gears you can shift up or down without the clutch, so if your cable breaks when you're on a ride all you have to do is push your bike in neutral until it's going about 5mph, then push it down into first gear with the engine at idle.  It'll go right in and you can ride home with no clutch.

Quote from: yooblonder on October 05, 2009, 04:59:06 PM
Does clutchless shifting daMage the engine in any way?

nope, and the transmission is designed for it too. FWIW it also saves wear on the clutch.

Quote from: NF11624 on October 05, 2009, 06:16:54 PMIt may be simpler, but I don't feel like I am shifting any faster than if I pulled the clutch (riding with faster bikes will help you shift quickly ).  Also, I noticed that sometimes the bike would jerk forward a bit on gear engagement.

YOU might be super fast with the clutch, but there's no way the clutchless shift isn't the fastest. Trust me (us), with more use and practice, there doesn't have to be any jerkiness. I've gotten so out of practice with the clutch that I'm sometimes less smooth when I use it!    

I'm going to try Roadstergal's advice.
Clutchless shifting here I come 

Quote from: ecpreston on October 06, 2009, 08:33:56 AM

Quote from: yooblonder on October 05, 2009, 04:59:06 PM
Does clutchless shifting daMage the engine in any way?

nope, and the transmission is designed for it too. FWIW it also saves wear on the clutch.

I beg to differ........I would trade off a worn clutch or a stretched cable with a siezed g/box anyday.

I have yet to see any owners manual/handbook that advocates the practise of clutchless changes. Smooth or not you are imposing all sorts of extra stresses and strains on various g/box and drivetrain components that would not otherwise be there if the clutch was employed.......not good.

You wouldnt know anything was wrong until all off a sudded.. **BANG** ..and you have snapped a slector fork or broke a dog off that then goes for a trip round the rest of the gearbox causing havoc to all the other moving parts it meets...... due to it trying to to engage 2 powered gears instead of 1 everyday for the last six months 

The practise is fine on race/track bikes where seconds count and that are being rebuilt every other weekend but there is no advantage to gain on the road. Add this with the possibilty of shortening the life of the g/box possibly even wrecking it and it becomes futile.

ive yet to witness any of my mates bikes suffering knackered gearboxes from clutchless shifting if im honest.

i do agree theres no real need for it on the street however there is also no real need for some of the other things we do with our bikes but it doesnt stop us fr :)om doing them 

i personally prefer it to using the clutch and find it quite easy to coax (SP?) it up with the slightest push of my toe. the fact that it does it so easily on its own makes me doubt the possible wear it could be causing.

just my thoughts 

Quote from: T1z3R on October 06, 2009, 04:03:30 PM
ive yet to witness any of my mates bikes suffering knackered gearboxes from clutchless shifting if im honest.

Give it time mate 

Quote from: sledge on October 06, 2009, 04:16:20 PM

Quote from: T1z3R on October 06, 2009, 04:03:30 PM
ive yet to witness any of my mates bikes suffering knackered gearboxes from clutchless shifting if im honest.

Give it time mate 

are they like buses in the UK?