The voters of Massachusetts may have just saved us from Obamacare.  How ironic is that?

We shall see. not impossible, BUT the odds have changed though

Saved us?

I'm in my 50s and self employed. My wife also works two jobs.
My house and cars are mine, which puts me ahead of most people I know.

I have two kids in college, health care to pay for, and only my own savings as a retirement plan.
I can afford to support maybe three of those four things. Which one do you suggest I do without?
If my heath care costs go up 25% a year again the next two years,  I'll have to drop two of them.

I'm breathlessly awaiting the Republican "plan".

Quote from: dubwise on January 21, 2010, 11:29:58 AM


I'm breathlessly awaiting the Republican "plan".

You had 8 years of Dubya, and 6 of those were full Republican control.   The only plan was to keep borrowing money from other countries to feed to the banks to lend to stupid consumers to buy Hummers and houses they could not actually afford, all to keep up the illusion that "...THE ECONOMY IS STRONG...", as Dubya put it.

Mr. Obama (I'm no huge fan, but I think he's an improvement over what we had) inherited the biggest farking mess this country has seen in 50 years.  Good luck to him, and us!

Yea Obama did all that you have said.
However he has not shown any intention of reversing course.
He is just a better spoken Bush who actually uses words that do exist.

OK fine he's a puppet of his advisors instead of being a puppet of his VP.

Instead of Regular Bush, we now have a anti gun, pro abortion and ghey rights - Bush.

1 yr is too little to judge - Fine I'd give you that.

I think though Obama is better respected in foreign countries than Bush was. Which may be a big deal. He could convince china to keep walking towards the Guillotine ... AKA keep lending us $ and selling us cheapo crappe to get that $ back ...

Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: Caffeine on January 21, 2010, 02:25:40 PMYou had 8 years of Dubya,

He sure wasn't my president. He wasn't even elected. He was appointed by the Supreme Court.
And today they pretty much invalidated every campaign finance law back to 1907.
I can't figure out what the right expects to gain by destroying the country.

China's not just lending us money. They're buying our property at fire-sale prices.

We are so done for.

Buying property at fire sale prices ... lets see ... they cannot move it to their country, and they cannot get a visa to visit their land. In fact they are so shafted cos if they have to get any revenue out of it, they have to appoint a management company which of course has to be locally owned and operated, and that = a 30% hair cut. Minimum. If you find out you're living in a house owned by a chinese guy sitting in china (property records have to list the owner of record BTW and are searchable online) tell me would you even pay rent Yea didn't think so.

America is a corporation, and they pay the executives all the $$ the country says it has. The rest of us are having to live on what is actually left in the till. Like Executives are paid real money based on paper assets. The rest of us get to fight over the leftovers.

Its the same way with the left or the right.

Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: dubwise on January 21, 2010, 04:44:15 PM

Quote from: Caffeine on January 21, 2010, 02:25:40 PMYou had 8 years of Dubya,

He sure wasn't my president. He wasn't even elected. He was appointed by the Supreme Court.
And today they pretty much invalidated every campaign finance law back to 1907.
I can't figure out what the right expects to gain by destroying the country.

China's not just lending us money. They're buying our property at fire-sale prices.

We are so done for.

Mr obama is on track to outspend many presidents combined. BUT i wil be the big man and say, i wish him well. that aside, china has us by the balls in a bad way, they buy our bonds and such. if they redeem them, we are Überfucked

Nah, they'll just fire up the presses and print out what they need. Yet, it's against the law for me to have my own printing press. 

Ive got an antique press in my basement, ( roughly weighs a ton and a half ) Hmmmm, no i cannot make money  ( legally) that thign has been down there forever lol

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on January 21, 2010, 08:39:48 PMMr obama is on track to outspend many presidents combined.

Where are you getting those numbers? Rush tell you that? Some non-journalist on Fox? Perhaps if you count projected spending. Perhaps not.

Bush spent more than everyone before him together, created the largest government agency in history, and yet people think he's the conservative . Huh?

jserio and dubwise are correct. Yamahon too, however you must separate what was approved and put in the pipeline by bush where Obama just was handing it out as a bush expense.

Having said that Obama is really not showing any signs of being different from bush. If that indeed happens, it will not even matter if he's more than or less than bush in terms of $$$ amounts, cos there has been massive and un calculable inflation. I remember 8 years ago buying my favorite oil for 73 c a qt. Today its $2.35. So 10 yr inflation is closer to 400% ? WTF. We're on par with Zimbabwe at that point.

Anyway Bank tax is another way Obama is punishing the victim while protecting the criminals. Awful.

BTW Fox news is more aptly written as Faux news.

Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: The Buddha on January 22, 2010, 08:31:59 AMHaving said that Obama is really not showing any signs of being different from bush.

Not as different as I'd like him to be, no.

Some different, though. He's trying to reverse one of Bush's major accomplishments,  our most-hated-nation status.

Most hated nation status is where he has actually made the most progress. Yea most of asia and europe loves him. He's prolly getting some backlash in the US because of that. India actually has turned into a huge supporter of Obama. Of course Obama is making some moves towards displacing china with India (which is odd, they hate that in India - like I go there and ask for some bearings or stuff like that to be made and they promptly say ... man you should go and make them in china, we buy them from over there see ...) WTF ...

Cool.
Buddha.

Who the hell cares what other nations think?  They are rivals.  Don't kid yourselves.  How can you tell if their stated opinion and/or advice is honest and sincere?  That's right, you can't, so stop being so naive.  You're either #1 or you're trying to knock-off #1.  This ain't Disneyland, folks, and it never will be.

The record shows both parties spend way too much and both sell us out routinely.  The differences in spending priorities is nothing compared to the fact they're all spending too much.  If you're blaming one side or the other you don't understand the problem.  The truth is the dems and reps are ON THE SAME SIDE, AGAINST US!  Both parties are too liberal.  They both waste our money and neither respects the constitution.  It's a fact, so don't argue with me.  The C.B.O. sez we're on a collision course with bankruptcy.  Both parties have had the chance to reverse this trend but they just went on spending.  If this pisses you off don't yell at me, go yell at the C.B.O. or yourself for not paying attention until now.

You can blame whoever you want but you'll be doing NOTHING to solve the problem.  Pay attention and get involved before our republic is no more, and it's on the ropes.  Don't kid yourself about that, either.  History shows it only takes two generations to destroy a republic, and we've been weakening this republic for some time already.  Both parties would love nothing better than to get rid of that pesky Constitution that protects liberty by limiting the size and scope of the federal government.  It's our duty to stop them.  If we don't, we deserve everything we get.

Correct: But one point I wont agree on ...

Not all trading partners are rivals. Thinking that they are is going to push the whole world into protectionism.

It will of course be better to make stuff ourselves than import it. However if we are trading (import and export) atleast it makes sense to trade with a country/region that thinks like you and acts like you - as in, no slave prison labor en masse and no imprisonment of dissidents ... like china does. And as an aside - a even trade or the smallest deficit possible should be better over a huge one like in the case of china-US.

Here is another thing I didn't know till just yesterday. US trade with India was 12 billion to India and 10.5 billion to US. Meaning US sold 10.5B worth to India and bought 12B from India. I am used to seeing Caterpillars and several other US made and european machinery in India, now I know what that all amounts to. Anyway that is a better example of trade than what US has with china or the middle east.

Cool.
Buddha.

My remarks above have nothing to do with trade.  I agree with you on that too.  When you hear people in the media whine about how unpopular the U.S. might be overseas it has everything to do with military and terrorist-fighting decisions and nothing to do with trade.  Most foreign countries love our trade policies because our politicians have been bought-off and allow the U.S. to be routinely taken advantage of.  They benefit more than we do, and it should be a more-or-less level playing field.  Both parties are in the pockets of various large corporations.  The solution is not to limit speech or assembly or anything of the sort.  The solution is informed and engaged American voters.  Someday they will run-out of developing countries and the playing field will be forced to become more level.  The problem is we won't live long enough to see it.

As for trusting our government to reform health care now, it's just crazy.  These are for the most part the most corrupt people in American history.  I wouldn't trust them to take my dog to take a piss let alone reform our health care system, and it floors me that anyone would be gullible enough to let them.  I can't afford everything in my middle class life either, but I'd rather have expensive health care that works rather than more expensive health care administered by the government that won't work, a la Britain and Canada.  Don't anyone try to tell me Canadian health care works.  It's a joke.  I live right next door.  Thousands of Canadians come here every year for care they can't wait for.

Facts are so pesky, like the constitution.

Quote from: bill14224 on January 22, 2010, 01:30:26 PM
Who the hell cares what other nations think?  They are rivals.  Don't kid yourselves. 

Last I checked, we all live on the same planet. They're neighbors. I believe in helping my neighbors.

So you think we're wrong to be helping in Haiti? What about "liberating" Iraq, that being one of Cheney's justifications?
Both of Bush's wars would have been won if we'd gone in building schools and hospitals instead of dropping bombs.
Would have been a fraction of the cost, and many thousand brave young American lives would have been spared.
Our standing in the world would have gone up, and the terrorists would be hated by all.

I do totally agree with you as to the multinationals playing us all. I also agree with your solution, informed and engaged voters.
Up until yesterday's Supreme Court decision, I even thought it was possible. Now, I think we're just screwed.

I'm puzzled, though. Who do you expect to reform health care, if not the government? The insurance companies?

Our "wars" are too political. Aren't we supposed to have the best military forces in the world? And yet we can't seem to find a 6'5 arab on dialysis? We are too worried about what a countries perception of us will be that we've instead of walking softly and carrying a big stick we're just walking softly. IF you feel it is necessary to go to war, don't play games. Kick the f%$k out of them and be done. Crush them. Leave no prisoners etc. Give civilians one week to depart, anyone left after that week is considered the enemy. We don't need to go door to door. We brought the nation of Japan to it's knees with only 2 bombs.

Quote from: dubwise on January 22, 2010, 03:04:46 PM

Quote from: bill14224 on January 22, 2010, 01:30:26 PM
Who the hell cares what other nations think?  They are rivals.  Don't kid yourselves.

Last I checked, we all live on the same planet. They're neighbors. I believe in helping my neighbors.

So you think we're wrong to be helping in Haiti? What about "liberating" Iraq, that being one of Cheney's justifications?
Both of Bush's wars would have been won if we'd gone in building schools and hospitals instead of dropping bombs.
Would have been a fraction of the cost, and many thousand brave young American lives would have been spared.
Our standing in the world would have gone up, and the terrorists would be hated by all.

I do totally agree with you as to the multinationals playing us all. I also agree with your solution, informed and engaged voters.
Up until yesterday's Supreme Court decision, I even thought it was possible. Now, I think we're just screwed.

I'm puzzled, though. Who do you expect to reform health care, if not the government? The insurance companies?

Whoa, don't put words in my mouth!

If your roof was leaking would you tear the house down?  This is what Obama and congress are trying to do, tearing-down our health care house and replace it with a health care prison, and an EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE ONE at that, according to the C.B.O.  C.B.O. says it'll bankrupt the country, but Obama and congress have shown us they don't care because they kept on pushing it.  Did you know the congress, president, and entire federal workforce is EXEMPT from this "health care" bill?  The bill is a lot more about government control than reforming health care.  C'mon now, it's not hard to see.  The senate bill is a foot thick and they're trying to ram it through in days with out-and-out bribery.  There is no transparency nor is there any republican input, both of which the president promised.  The bill stinks to high heaven.  I say burn it and start over.  Of course I expect the government to reform health care, just not this gov't.  We have to clean the rats out first.

Of course I believe in helping those in need, but allowing yourself to be screwed like a drunk cheerleader at a frat party is another matter, which is what we do.  We help people here and abroad for generations who have no intention to become more independent, yet we keep throwing money at them.  We become enablers, not to mention dupes, when we do this.

Who's talking about Haiti?  Compared to the issues above Haiti doesn't even register, although it's a terrible tragedy.  Haiti is not a functioning republic.  That's why it's such a mess.  Gangs step-in and run sections of the country.  Relief convoys are being attacked and robbed by local gangs just last week, didn't you hear?  That's what happens when you try to help Haiti, and that's why you have to take soldiers with you.  The country is so poor that whenever anyone brings aid of any kind it's stolen by the first group of thugs they come in contact with, be it local gangs or the government.  The Haitian government is just as bad as the gangs.  The money and supplies "disappear" and the public goes on suffering, EXACTLY like the palestinians.  Yassir Arafat lined his pockets with billions until the day he died, all the while pretending to care about his people, who he was merely using.  This is a common thing in chronically poor countries without a functioning republic.  Anyone who has power, either locally or in the capital, takes whatever they can for themselves and leaves everyone else behind.  The only proven method of helping the general population in such countries permanently is to "nation build", like we did in Europe after WWII, and most recently Iraq.  We'd have to invade, restore (or install in this case) the infrastructure, set-up elections, occupy for many years while training police and security forces, then slowly withdraw.  It's expensive, slow, and hundreds of our boys and girls in uniform would die in the process.  Do you REALLY want to help Haiti that badly, or do you just feel bad like the rest of us and want an easy solution?

We couldn't build schools and such in Iraq while Saddam was in charge.  He wouldn't have allowed it.  He also kept billions in foreign aid for himself.  Saddam didn't even allow girls to go to school.  I could ask you if you think only boys should be allowed to go to school but I don't play dirty games like that.  Do you know how Saddam took power in Iraq in 1979?  He murdered his predecessor, like in the old Soviet Union.  The idea that Iraq could be helped in any meaningful way with Saddam and his sons in charge is so naive I don't know what else to say.  His sons used to crash weddings and rape the bride for kicks.  Didn't you hear that either?  You can't meaningfully help a poor country and leave inhumane people in charge.  It just can't work, period.

I am disappointed in Bush for not having the balls to admit exactly why he overthrew Saddam.  He did it to have a thriving republic smack-dab in the center of the Middle East, thinking it'll go a long way to stabilize the region.  It was a brilliant idea and it worked, (probably Cheney's idea) he just didn't have the nerve to admit why.  Instead he made-up some shiite about WMD's and terror camps.  Saddam did in fact allow Al-Qaeda to operate in his country and he was very happy about 9/11, but that's not why we invaded.  It was a secondary reason at best.  Anyone who tells you it was a war for oil is totally misinformed.  Iraqi oil doesn't come to the U.S.  The bulk of it goes to Turkey, Europe, and China.

As for free speech, spending money is free speech.  It is self-evident.  Thomas Jefferson would heartily agree.  Think not?  Read-up on him, it'll be an education.  Unions have never been limited about how much they can spend on candidates and ads, why should anyone else?  No government has the right to tell you or me, or any collection of us, how much of our money can be spent or when on any candidate or media ads.  The Supreme Court, famous for 200 years of judicial activism, got it right for a change.  Rights are not bestowed on us by the government, although they'd love you to believe it.  Our rights come from our creator and no one else.

Just in case you're anti-corporate let me throw this at you.  I work for a corporation with about 700 employees that takes great pains not to get involved in politics.  We raise tens of thousands of dollars every year for the United Way, Juvinile Diabetes Foundation, the local food bank, Adopt an Angel, and other charities.  When government goes after evil corporations with punitive regulations and taxes it affects us too.  Is that fair?  Has that thought ever crossed your mind?  After Obama took office and announced his agenda business went in the tank as we all know.  I was working 4 day weeks for most of last year, so I didn't donate to the United Way, JDRF, or the food bank.  I couldn't afford to.  Actions have consequences.  Hopefully Obama will learn that someday.

We agree on the solution to these problems.  Have faith in it.  An informed and engaged electorate is more powerful than the aggregate power of all the big evil corporations combined.  Think I'm wrong?  Wait until November and watch the heads roll!