Quote from: bill14224 on January 22, 2010, 04:18:12 PMDo you know how Saddam took power in Iraq in 1979?

I certainly do. We installed him.

The CIA, at the direction of Richard Helms, assasinated Qasim in 1963 and brought the Ba'ath party to power.
We supported them, and in particular Saddam, throughout the 60s and 70s, for their anti-communist stance.

QuoteSaddam did in fact allow Al-Qaeda to operate in his country

Now you're just hallucinating. He actively crushed anyone who could challenge him.

Quote from: dubwise on January 22, 2010, 05:06:00 PM

Quote from: bill14224 on January 22, 2010, 04:18:12 PMDo you know how Saddam took power in Iraq in 1979?

I certainly do. We installed him.

The CIA, at the direction of Richard Helms, assasinated Qasim in 1963 and brought the Ba'ath party to power.
We supported them, and in particular Saddam, throughout the 60s and 70s, for their anti-communist stance.

QuoteSaddam did in fact allow Al-Qaeda to operate in his country

Now you're just hallucinating. He actively crushed anyone who could challenge him.

Al-Qaeda never challenged Saddam.  They had roughly the same goals.

We did not "install" Saddam.  He drew a pistol and blew his successor's brains out.  It's a fact.  I'm not hallucinating.  Sure, we've allied ourselves with several murderers over the years in an effort to defeat what we regard as a greater evil at the time.  We allied ourselves with Josef Stalin in WWII, one of the most accomplished murderers in human history.  We can chew the fat all day about whether that's a wise thing to do or not, but I'm not going to carry-on with you unless you start showing me some intellectual honesty.  Who are you anyway, Howard Dean?

bill this is true. also ( correct me if i am wrong please) didnt we also support the taliban, while they were at war with soviet russia?

Quote from: dubwise on January 21, 2010, 11:29:58 AM
Saved us?

I'm in my 50s and self employed. My wife also works two jobs.
My house and cars are mine, which puts me ahead of most people I know.

I have two kids in college, health care to pay for, and only my own savings as a retirement plan.
I can afford to support maybe three of those four things. Which one do you suggest I do without?
If my heath care costs go up 25% a year again the next two years,  I'll have to drop two of them.

I'm breathlessly awaiting the Republican "plan".

Note before I continue posting...I vote in every election...from president to local dog catcher.

I didn't vote for Obama. I didn't vote for Bush II...Or Clinton...or Bush I.

I have a clear conscience when the guy from either party screws things up...although it is a bummer to always vote for losing candidates...

Anyways,

I think the federal govt should do a handful of tasks...like maintain the military for defense or build interstate highways to support commerce. They have no business subsidizing our health care.

I am happy that you own your own home and send your children to college. I wish more people were as responsible. But you have no right to expect the govt (local, state, federal) to raid 50% of my (and everyone's) income for you to do so.

Since you asked the question, I would make the kids take out loans to finish their education if you could not afford to pay for it.

You think my kids should be saddled with loans, and that the insurance and medical industries
should be able to continue stealing from all of us?

I disagree. I believe that profit has no place in the core functions surrounding peoples' health.
It's inherent in the profit model that you are creating an incentive to find reasons to refuse coverage.
The cost of that profit is destroying our economy while the quality of our care declines.

Hey look, we're back on the OP's topic.

Y'know Obama health reform is something ... its like fitting a bicycle wheel on a car with a missing wheel, its not gonna do anything but the guy can put a for sale sign on it saying it has new tars on all 4 wheels.

In the next 10 years there will be a huge outcry for health reform from get this - hospitals and doctors. They will simply get tired and go out of business from people not paying their ridiculous bills.

Worse yet, they will face price questions from patients who know they dont have insurance and they will get comparison shopped. They will then start a race to the actuals and hospitals will start looking less like 5 star hotels and start looking like a place that caters to sick people. AKA how they look in India or other third world. Its already happening. The Urgent cares and outpatient surgery centers are the first step.

We really dont have to do anythign. Oh, actually we will just have to write laws and pass them preventing agressive collection methods for medical balances ... yea. Cos everyone knows asprin costs 20C on the street and 40 bucks at a hospital, cos you have to cover for non paying patients. Of course if it did cost 20c there will be almost no non payers.

Cool.
Buddha.

and the medical overhard, cost of  building lights equipment, the govt through whoever was/is in power has shown a gross inability to judge what somethign is worth. who would we/should we charge with that task? yeah costs DO need tom come down, but for some odd reason it seems, whenever govt brings costs down, it tends to cost more. idk where to look anymore lol

What we need to really do is offer people proper protection against blind billing like, you walk into a hospital with a bleeding arm and yo uahve no idea what you'd be billed ... Yea you know you need stitches, a shot for pain and one for tetanus and a bandage ... will it cost 50, 500, 5000 ... 50,000) and aggressive collection ... heck they should pass a law saying it cannot go on your credit especially if you have insurance and that wont cover it.

I also like to see emergency and ambulance costs get sent to the right party (like you're in an accident that is someon else's fault ... they will get your insurance info - why, its that other guy's responsibility). Worse yet, you fall off the bike and someone driving by calls the ambulance ... yea you get dinged for that.

Cool.
Buddha.

This is where Thom Hartmann's mantra comes in. I don't want the government making my shoes, my car, or my computer.
But when I'm having a heart attack, I'm not in a position to shop around. It has to work.
The capitalist model simply falls apart on essential services. The goal of profit is completely opposite the goal of service.

It's the same with the utilities. They deregulated power out west and it took Enron two years to
come into existence and maliciously, purposefully, destroy California's economy in the name of profit.
If you haven't watched The Smartest Guys In The Room, you really should. It's entertaining.

Churches run decent health systems. So do universities. So do governments. Corporations can not.

Churches are the most over priced in this area atleast, and I also think their pre school really was unethical in my son's case. Basically they took our $, accepted an autistic kid and started the program and kicked him out 1 week into a 6 week program cos they couldn't deal with him. Somehow I think if they throw in "the lord" or "jesus" into a sentence it allows them to do anything. "In the name of the lord I kill this poor fellow and take his land and house so that he may have a better life". Yea ...

Anyway they are trying to collect big $ from the buddha for various crap they didn't provide or we didn't ask for/need and it was a problem created by my son's school who also were the ones who called the ambulance when he fainted in class ... to cover their ass. I am dragging them through the mud. I anticipate paying 100 bucks on a 1500 bill, that is if I dont get them to collect it from the school.

Cool.
Buddha.

If it wasn't evident, I meant that non-profits can run decent health care, not that they all do.

I guess they can, but I am yet to see one. In fact I am yet to see a big non profit do anything 1/2 decent, OK better than the govt, sure, but not that much better.

1 thing people dont realise is - its non profit after they have done paying themselves millions.

Cool.
Buddha.

I think I will stay outta this one... Of course eventually Obama can find another senator to bribe, millions of dollars to LA for Mary Landreux's vote, Oh yeah we gave nebraska tax exemptions to get Ben Nelson's vote. Several senators weren't voting for health care because they thought it was good they voting for it because they were getting a big fat sack of cash.

As long as he's wasting time with health reform which I think is going to go nowheer even if passed - he's not doing more damage by considering even worse, like crap and tirade or immigration.
Best to keep him occupied where least damage is possible.
Cool.
Buddha.

Does everyone think the health industry is doing a great job?
My wife works a 30 hour a week job and it goes almost entirely to our health care.
When I was growing up, a 40 hour a week job bought the house, the food, the education and the health care.

I'm not hearing anything here but "no" to everything.
Anybody got any positive ideas? Love to hear 'em.

Dont pay the bill, and when they call negotiate with them.
However I have no need for and never did I need credit in nearly 10 years.
My house ... well fixed rate and I somehow got it inspite of abuse of my creditors (though I didn't have to start doing it till ~2005 when my son got diagnosed wiht autism and once that went on his medical record, they refuse everything. Hence I have been stiffing labs and they cringed and cried and settled a 5000 bill for $105 after repeatedly telling them to stop wasting time and report it to my credit ... Turns out 105 bucks was what my insurance negotiated rate for the tests was. $2500 fragile X test was lowered to 13 bucks as pre negotiated $ ...

I am sorry these people deserve to be stiffed. Or paid 5c on each dollar (thinking that itself is too high) but I fought them for 1 year.

I am insured and its pretty good ... however emergency  BS and anything else is rife with errors, and insurance companies dont even suggest OH there is a typo here ... they just refuse. I promptly turn around and say the ER people's billing department - sorry you have a mistake ... dunno what it is but its wrong ... Over and over again. The last 3 months have been nightmares mostly for them but me too.

Here is the other twist in our laws ... you owe someone 100 bucks you cannot get out of it in bankruptcy. Owe 100K and you can literally walk ... medical bills never go to court ... they're going to take you to court for collecting 1000 bucks ... yea right ... and remember this, they have split the billign into 20 different fragments, and they send you 20 bills - each one has to go to court ... you could wait and pay it just as it goes to the court ... may work ... I however just fight, say its their mistake, or the school called the ambulance to cover their ass for giving my son food he wasn't supposed to eat ... so he faints, they call ambulance and us ... so we have this bill ... sorry you should ask the school.

So on ... just argue ... if they said you need aspirin, I'd have run across the street and got it for 10c ... no ... they put in in a cup and sit in on your table ... you wake up and knock it over ... oops that was 100 bucks and you need another mystery pill ... here ...

Cool.
Buddha.

Seriously? That's your answer? Agree to their terms and then don't hold up your end?

I am not agreeing to nothing unless it has prices on it.
I consent to bill insurance ... yea but nothing wiht no prices on it.

Show me prices ... BTW in my son's case there is no patient consent he was 6 and the school sent him to the hospital. No one signed a form.

You actually ask several times if I am the patient, how much would this cost - never once have I got an answer. However the bill I am fighting about was not me or my wife. My son was the patient.

The standard doc visits etc I have insurance that covers all that. Even the hospital my insurance picked up 1/2 the charges. I suspect there are some "errors" in the bill and its the hospital that made them cos they stand to gain.

And sorry I dont agree to anything. I tell them to collect on it, and hurry ... that is it. The lab bill from 05 was entirely due to lab core's errors in not following my son's doctors recomendations for a blood draw.
They drew 13 vials over 4 sessions. I had insurance for 3 of them and on the 4th I didn't. If they had followed my doctors instructions it will have been fine with 1 draw of 4 vials which actually we still have that same test schedule every quarter. 2 vials is all they draw now a days, cos well, these lab techs are competent. I told them as they were drawing that the 4 vials was all that was needed ... since it was 4 at tha tfirst time I thought that was it. Then they said we need another session ... where they drew 3 ... then they said another ... then another ... by the time the last 2 were happenign I knew some problem was happening where the techs dont know arithmetic or cant read instructions form the doctor.

They got lucky when my insurance paid the first 3, I told the Idiots who used to call ... if it was me you'd have gotten stiffed on all of it cos your tech are morons.

You can do what you're saying, it could be just as effective, but I simply get to the bottom of the whole deal. I make them tell me the aspirin cost 600 bucks etc etc ... usually it never comes to that, they know waste when the person on the phone screams at them for the 300th time.

Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: dubwise on January 25, 2010, 10:20:31 AM
Does everyone think the health industry is doing a great job?
My wife works a 30 hour a week job and it goes almost entirely to our health care.
When I was growing up, a 40 hour a week job bought the house, the food, the education and the health care.

I'm not hearing anything here but "no" to everything.
Anybody got any positive ideas? Love to hear 'em.

Yep I have a suggestion get government out of health insurance.

You can't buy insurance from a company that doesn't have a presence in your state, there goes competition in markets, especially in an ever increasing e-commerce world where traditional brick and mortar overheads can be done away with.
States are allowed to place ridiculous requirements on insurance companies. Isn't it Massachusets that requires health insurance companies in that state to pay for hair transplants? Yeah I'm going bald but thats a cosmetic issue, get a rug or shave it if you have an esteem problem.

I think not being able to afford a motorcycle right now is affecting my health. Can I just go buy one and have them bill my health insurance? After all, isn't a persons "health" also linked to their happiness?  





Okay, now to be serious. I'm all for making changes to our current health care system because, yes, it does have issues. However, I'm not for, "change, just for the sake of change". We won't know what works best until we get something going. I don't see what is so difficult about spotting the problem and them implementing a solution for it. For example, it's a pain in the ass to keep track of your medical records. Why isn't all that info kept in one centralized database that any hospital anywhere can access? This would speed up the process of treating patients and cut down on fraud too I believe. How many of you have gone to the doctor and have to answer the same 50 billion questions 3 times before you even see the doctor? Cut down some of the waste and red tape. Why do procedures need a 15 digit "code" for billing? Call it what it is and there won't be as many mix ups. Instead of billing your insurance for "code 1589988711664" just call it, regular check up, or whatever the hell it is. Make ALL procedures termed universally to cut down the confusion at the insurance companies.