Hi guys,

As a regular user of a bicycle, and from previous misfortune of front wheel locking and falling over the handlebars (of the bicycle), I tend to use the back brake more on my GS500 than the front in about a 65%:35% ratio, both in terms of pressure and also time.  I tend to brake on the back a fraction of a second before the front too.

Speaking to a couple of friends (who don't really have much experience of bicycles....nor motorbikes for that matter, although their motorbike tuition is fresher in their minds than mine), they said the front brake should be used more.  It goes against my instinct, yet I want to be safe so now I wonder.... 

Actually I have done 35,000km so far without any issue.  One time I hit a patch of oil at the exact moment of having to take evasive action, and the back wheel locked when braking, but if I used the front brake more in that situation I think the front wheel would have slipped and I'd have gone off.  So, therefore, am I really braking wrong?

So what should I do?  Does it depend on the braking situation?  Is there a correct timing of braking/ratio of pressure?

Thanks for your answers!

When I took the MSF course, they teach that you should apply both brakes at the same time, with the front brakes making up >70% of the stopping power.  

One thing I remember about the MSF course and wheel lockups, is that if the front wheel locks up, like on an oil patch, you can let go of the brake and reapply and you should be okay.  Or if for some reason you are braking while turning, you will most likely low side.

But if the rear wheel locks up, unless you can quickly release after when you first notice it, the MSF said you should keep it locked, because if you let go of the rear brake and the wheel suddenly catches after it has drifted off to the side, it can cause you to high side.  Whereas if you had just kept it locked, you'll eventually come to a stop, or at the worst low side.

http://www.motorcyclesafetyinfo.com/motorcycle_braking.html

Realistically, I've found that a lot of motorcyclists don't even use the rear brake most of the time.  It's not all that difficult to lock the rear wheel up, and it only takes one time for most riders to become real shy with the rear brake.  

007brendan: thanks a lot for this resourceful link.  Until now I was confident, although this makes me realise how little I really know!  Lucky for me I am a person who takes speed signs literally and never take undue chances, otherwise my niavity here would have landed me in trouble by now.

Thanks again!  Going to be practising these recommended braking techniques.

yep, you should be using 70% front and 30% rear. The GSs rear brake does a very good job of locking up the rear wheel, plus you've got to factor in engine braking so that 65% you thought you were using is probably more like 75-80% when you let off the throttle.

The GS has no where near the power you need to accidentally flip over the front end, so you might be more comfortable if you go into a parking lot somewhere, get up to 15mph or so and just grab a handful of front brake a couple of times, more gently at first. Eventually you'll get used to the front brake and how much faster it can stop you.

I think the important part here is that you just should not use either brake when you're going over an oil spot, then you don't have to worry about which brake will lock up first. Front tires are usually stickier than rear tires anyway, so it should hold.

Thanks tt_four too.

I was just practising a wee bit.  I notice that the front brake, when pressed hardish (not fully) sort of gives a sensation of rythmic "waves" of pressure, as if the wheel isn't straight or the brake pads haven't worn in fully (I changed then only 3000km ago, and because I didn't use them with force I don't think they are worn much/good as new).

Does this make sense, or could there be a problem?

The percentage numbers are sort of silly ("70% front, 30% rear") and aren't really accurate of anything.  If you have good tires, brakes, and road surface, you can apply enough front brake to make zero rear rear braking possible.  If you tried to apply that same force to the rear brake, you would just slide the rear tire.

Mullan, there are a lot of good books out there you might be interested in.  Start with Proficient Motorcycling and the sequel, both by David Hough.

Think of what happens when you apply the brake.  The rear becomes lighter as weight shifts to the front.  If you try to stop with the rear brake, you will initially have good braking power.  As you increase the pressure on the rear brake, the rear end becomes lighter and traction at the rear tire decreases.  Your ability to brake decreases corresponding with that loss of traction.  Eventually, you'll skid the rear.

The inverse happens up front.  As you brake, your front compresses due to more weight.  That weight pushing down on your front tire increases traction and you get a corresponding increase in available braking power the more you brake, up to the limit of traction provided by the tire and road surface.

Your ability to stop fast is for the most part determined by how you use your front brake, not the rear.

You're absolutely right if you had hit that patch of oil while your front was heavily stressed from braking, you would very likely go down, so it is situation dependent.  If you're moving through a curve and want some braking to stabilize yourself, the rear brake is very useful.  Same for at low speeds, you can drag the rear brake while pulling with the engine to keep yourself stabilized.

Rythmic pressure can be from a slightly warped front rotor.

Quote from: romulux on May 18, 2010, 04:50:55 AM

If you're moving through a curve and want some braking to stabilize yourself, the rear brake is very useful. 

Don't you run the risk of losing traction by breaking in a curve? 

Quote from: redhawkdancing on May 18, 2010, 05:31:48 AM

Quote from: romulux on May 18, 2010, 04:50:55 AM

If you're moving through a curve and want some braking to stabilize yourself, the rear brake is very useful. 

Don't you run the risk of losing traction by breaking in a curve? 

Sure, if you are using up all of your traction just turning.  If you've left yourself some safety margin, you can apply some brake while leaned over.

I really appreciate all the answers.  After 35000km, I suppose I am still quite a novice and realise now there's a lot more science to this that I should have thought about at 0km.  Definately will be reading up more on how to not to end up coming off the bike, which so far has been the case thankfully.

Thanks again!

This is a situation dependant issue.  Brakes are used for more than just emergency stopping.  There are situations where the rear brake should be used independantly of the front, such as during slow tight manuevers or in trail braking in the twisties for stabilization of bike.  But, for general slowing and stopping, the brake effort should be balanced by the driver and just how much can be applied to the either the rear or front may vary depending upon the bike and the load and the speed and the road surface.  Experience is priceless.  The front brake can contribute far more power for slowing/stopping than can the rear.  Locking of either one or both can quickly slam your carcass upon the ground.

prs

Quote from: romulux on May 18, 2010, 04:50:55 AM
The percentage numbers are sort of silly ("70% front, 30% rear") and aren't really accurate of anything.  If you have good tires, brakes, and road surface, you can apply enough front brake to make zero rear rear braking possible.  If you tried to apply that same force to the rear brake, you would just slide the rear tire.

Mullan, there are a lot of good books out there you might be interested in.  Start with Proficient Motorcycling and the sequel, both by David Hough.

Think of what happens when you apply the brake.  The rear becomes lighter as weight shifts to the front.  If you try to stop with the rear brake, you will initially have good braking power.  As you increase the pressure on the rear brake, the rear end becomes lighter and traction at the rear tire decreases.  Your ability to brake decreases corresponding with that loss of traction.  Eventually, you'll skid the rear.

The inverse happens up front.  As you brake, your front compresses due to more weight.  That weight pushing down on your front tire increases traction and you get a corresponding increase in available braking power the more you brake, up to the limit of traction provided by the tire and road surface.

Your ability to stop fast is for the most part determined by how you use your front brake, not the rear.

You're absolutely right if you had hit that patch of oil while your front was heavily stressed from braking, you would very likely go down, so it is situation dependent.  If you're moving through a curve and want some braking to stabilize yourself, the rear brake is very useful.  Same for at low speeds, you can drag the rear brake while pulling with the engine to keep yourself stabilized.

Rythmic pressure can be from a slightly warped front rotor.

Haha, please don't believe all this. Braking forces are way more complicated than I think Romulux gives them credit for, and assuming the rear brake is worthless is just not the way to ride if you're new. The best solution is to learn how to use both brakes properly, and not just ignore the brake you don't understand.

I will however 2nd that the feeling your getting would be from the rotor, and not the brake pads. Does the rotor look worn, or can you feel and bumps if you run your fingers a long the sides of it? The GS isn't packed with high quality components, so you might just be feeling what the GS does, but your rotor could also need replaced. It's hard for anyone to say without actually seeing it.

I would recommend the MSF course, check your local DMV/BMV for links to the local companies offering the saftey course.

My GS has dual discs, one on the front and one on the back.  To ignore either is a terrible waste.   

Geometry and weight distribution on a motorcycle are far different than a bicycle. Check the difference in distance from your butt to the front axle, and then add in all the weight of the engine/transmission down lower than you. The front brake is where most of your braking power is - practice in a nice big empty parking lot until you can use it effectively. Or take the MSF if you can find a class near you, it's worthwhile.

mullan,

The front brake stops the bike. The rear brake is used to settle the suspension, and to feel out traction in slippery conditions. The only time the rear brake should provide a significant amount of your total stopping power is when you are riding two-up with a passenger.

Although I don't condone it, many riders forgo use of the rear brake completely.

On the street, the proper way to break is to apply the front firmly, and gently drag the rear brake, shifting through the gears as you slow. The harder you apply the front brake the more you should let off the rear brake. Over-braking and locking up the rear can be extremely dangerous; if you let off the rear when it's badly out of shape, you can cause yourself to 'highside', which is one of the worst crashes that does not involve running into a solid object.

Despite what's posted above, it is in fact possible to lift the rear end of the GS under heavy braking. However, unlike a bicycle, you really don't 'go over the handlebars' of a motorcycle. The rear end will start to lift off the ground. The feeling is noticeable, and very controllable. Your natural panic reaction will be to let off the brakes slightly to set the rear end down, which is exactly the right thing to do. I personally feel more comfortable with the rear end in the air than the front end.

At the track, I don't use the rear brake at all. Engine braking is sufficient to achieve the same results.

I'm a new rider as well and I took the Motorcycle Ohio Basic Rider Course. In the course they told us to use front and back evenly without locking up either wheel. They also stressed avoiding braking in curves because of the available traction being lower due to the turning. I have learned through experience that some braking is ok, but just experiencing the forces involved is more valuable than what we can tell you. Practice turning and braking and emergency stops in an open parking lot. Experience is the key.

Did they run you through the midcorner emergency avoidance maneuver..?

Quote from: burning1 on May 18, 2010, 09:58:56 AM
Did they run you through the midcorner emergency avoidance maneuver..?

They didn't cover it in the Georgia BRC.  Can you describe it?

Basically... There are some situations where you really do need to brake mid-corner. What they taught in the California MSF course was to stand the bike up, brake hard, and run wide; reasoning being that you can brake significantly harder while upright than you can while cornering.

The other reason it's good to usually avoid braking mid turn is that braking is going to make your bike want to stand up straight, which isn't what you want when you're already trying to lean it over to turn.

Aside from all that...

Mullen: as you can see everyone here has different opinions of the best/safest way to ride, so do yourself a big favor and forget everything everyone here said and go learn how to brake from a proper source, preferrably an MSF course, if not try to find someone who's qualified to give you a good answer instead of a bunch of people on an internet forum, the last thing you need is 6 different strangers opinions running through your head when you're about to take a turn. Ask someone you trust and just go with what they say.