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Cornering advice?

Started by Jabilli, May 26, 2010, 06:35:01 PM

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Jabilli

Hey folks,
I've been playing around with proper leaning techniques and am looking for a bit of advice. A few questions:

1: It's difficult to determine the proper amount of lean for the turn and the speed at which I'm taking it. As I should I brake for the turn and begin on the outside of the apex, If I'm going too slow, hanging off the bike really feels silly - I'm guessing if I'm doing it properly, I should maintain a constant pushing pressure on the inside handlebar (Push right,go right): If I'm leaning too much, I lose that "edge" where I'm pressing on the bar. How do I determine the proper amount of lean? I realize a lot of newer people tend to stick their helmet out but keep their butt over the seat... I keep an effort to really hang off the thing. ( a bit unnerving, but never fails to put a smile on my face.)

2. While cornering I have a habit of putting the balls of my feet on the pegs. It feels much more balanced and controlled than having my heels on them, however in rationality, It would seem that having the heels on the pegs makes much more sense- I know it's a no-no to shift or brake drastically during the turn, but it seems a good thing to have the option to be able to shave off speed with your rear brake if necessary. What do you guys recommend for foot positioning?

3. I know in the middle of the apex it's best to roll on the throttle out of the turn- How do you determine the "sweet spot" where the throttle response is proper for that speed? Practice? It seems terribly awkward to roll the throttle with your wrist as you're pressing on the bar one way or the other- I have a tendency to roll the throttle with my knuckles (wrap my fingers around the throttle, then tuck in or roll out my fingers as opposed to using my wrist.) Is this a bad habit? It would seem to me that because of this problem (trying not to throttle while pushing the bar) that people have a tendency to be better at turning one direction than the other- Is this true?

Any other pieces of advice? Thanks   :-) 

Stock '04 GS500f

Contemplating the metaphysical with rationality is not far off from beating your head against a wall in efforts to discover what's on the other end- Using empirical science is like trying to figure out what's behind the wall by the sound of the thud.

burning1

Determining entry speed and lean angle comes from experience. The best advise I can give is to try not to 'micro-manage' your line through a corner. Ideally, you want to perform one (or in some cases two) steering inputs to get into the corner, and then let the bike follow a smooth line through the corner without any correction. What I advise most people to do is to try turning in, and then let the bike go where it wants to go, only correcting if your about to go outside the lines or crash.

The balls of your feet belong on the pegs. The only time your heel should be on the peg is when you are about to shift.

Ideally, you should be on the throttle as soon as you are off the brakes. For most corners, you want to give just enough throttle to lift the rear end up slightly, and shift the weight bias of the bike to the rear wheel. At the track however, it's very common for to have the knee on the ground, and the throttle wide open.

burning1

Keep in mind... On some downhill roads, you may enter a corner fast enough that you *can't* give the bike the necessary amount of throttle without crashing. As with any advise, safety trumps 'ideal technique.'

Jabilli

Excellent, thank you.

It really did feel weird trying to keep my heels on the pegs. I feel a day at the track would really be beneficial, anyone from the Salt Lake area? Recommendations? Pricing?

How about my throttle technique? Is that just a bunch of silliness or does anyone else do that?
Stock '04 GS500f

Contemplating the metaphysical with rationality is not far off from beating your head against a wall in efforts to discover what's on the other end- Using empirical science is like trying to figure out what's behind the wall by the sound of the thud.

burning1

I don't pay enough attention to my fingers to know. I can say though, that generally I can roll on the throttle a little while my fingers are still on the brakes, as part part of my braking strategy.

As far as how much throttle to apply... It really depends on what behavior you're trying to correct. If your in a long sweeping corner, your body is hanging off the bike, and you're dragging, knee and pegs around, you can apply a little throttle to stabilize the bike and gain some cornering clearance. The right amount of throttle can also help prevent the front end from sliding around, especially over rough pavement. Generally, I'd say that 10% or so of WOT would be your goal. You should feel the impact of the throttle, both as gentle acceleration and as a stabilizing force, without feeling like you're going to spin the rear tire (which is not very likely on a GS500 with sticky tires, and a tuned suspension to begin with.)

bill14224

I think burning 1 answered your questions very well, but from the nature of your questions it sounds like you're riding WAY TOO FAST for public roads.  Taking the fast line through a turn on a public road means you're doing two or three times the speed limit.  When going that fast YOU CAN'T REACT to what hazards may exist on a corner until it's WAY TOO LATE.  A rock, hole, crack, sharp bump, stick, rabbit, squirrel, etc., can wreck your whole day.  Practice the fast line on the track only.  SLOW DOWN before you get yourself killed.
V&H pipes, K&N drop-in, seat by KnoPlace.com, 17/39 sprockets, matching grips, fenderectomy, short signals, new mirrors - 10 scariest words: "I'm here from the government and I'm here to help!"

burning1

Excellent advice bill. My observation is that 5% of crashes are caused by rider's who exceeded the bike's potential. 95% of the crashes I've seen were caused by riders who asked too their own ability (this includes *all* of my crashes.)

Aussie 500

Dude, ride how you ride. Don't over think it. Relax and take the corner how it feels comfortable for you. Unless you learning to race, i wouldn't stress over it.
If you see a drunk behind the wheel, kick them in the balls from me.

tt_four

I wouldn't put too much stress on hanging off the bike at this point. That has a little more influence when you have a bike with clipons, but on a bike with normal handlebars like the GS you don't really need to hang off the seat/bike unless you're really moving. I rarely bother hanging off anymore unless I'm really riding faster than I should be, and even at that point it's mostly just for the fun of it. I can get pretty much to the edges of my tires comfortable with my butt firmly planted on the seat. That would also get rid of some of your other concerns because you can keep the balls of your feet on the pegs, and if you have to shift of brake in a turn you can feel free to move your feet to do it. There's no reason you can't shift in a turn. Ideally you'll go into the turn in the right gear and just ride it out, but even after 10 years of riding I still go into turns in the wrong gear by accident once in a while. The important thing is that you're not already riding at your limit, because having the shift or having the bike bog out when you try to accelerate would certainly put you over the limit.

Not too sure about the throttle, don't think I pay that much attention either, but even if you're hanging off the bike there shouldn't really be that much pressure on your hands. If you're hanging off the bike in either direction, most of your weight should be on the inside of your opposite leg as it's holding onto the gas tank, and you should be able to move your hands freely.

It doesn't sounds like anything about what you're doing with the throttle is wrong, you just need some time to get used to it. You'll get used to working the throttle while you're turning. No sure if it has to do with the throttle or not, but most people have an easier time turning one direction over the other as well. It's the same reason some people skateboard/snowboard with one foot forward, or even always keep the same foot forward whenever they're coasting on a bicycle.

scratch

#9
Quote from: Jabilli on May 26, 2010, 06:35:01 PM
1: It's difficult to determine the proper amount of lean for the turn and the speed at which I'm taking it.  How do I determine the proper amount of lean?
What burning1 said.  It takes time and experience.  I enter a turn at the posted speed limit, and if I think I could have gone through it faster, I will enter the turn a few miles per hour faster the next time.

Quote from: Jabilli on May 26, 2010, 06:35:01 PM
As I should brake for the turn and begin on the outside of the turn, If I'm going too slow, hanging off the bike really feels silly
As it should.  Don't hang off for slow turns.  Until you are experienced enough, hanging off only serves to upset the bike; right now, you need to focus on being smooth with your throttle and steering inputs.

Quote from: Jabilli on May 26, 2010, 06:35:01 PM
I'm guessing if I'm doing it properly, I should maintain a constant pushing pressure on the inside handlebar (Push right,go right)
Actually, that would be an indication of not enough throttle through a turn.  Enter the turn at a speed slower than what you normally would and accelerate through the turn.

Quote from: Jabilli on May 26, 2010, 06:35:01 PM
If I'm leaning too much, I lose that "edge" where I'm pressing on the bar.
You want to be light on the bar, which means no pressure on the bar.  Let the bike do what it does.

Quote from: Jabilli on May 26, 2010, 06:35:01 PM
I realize a lot of newer people tend to stick their helmet out but keep their butt over the seat...
As they should.  This is proper riding technique.

Quote from: Jabilli on May 26, 2010, 06:35:01 PM
I keep an effort to really hang off the thing. ( a bit unnerving, but never fails to put a smile on my face.)
Leave the hanging off for the racetrack and riding in the rain.  Learn proper cornering technique first.

Quote from: Jabilli on May 26, 2010, 06:35:01 PM
2. While cornering I have a habit of putting the balls of my feet on the pegs. It feels much more balanced and controlled than having my heels on them, however in rationality, it would seem that having the heels on the pegs makes much more sense- I know it's a no-no to shift or brake drastically during the turn, but it seems a good thing to have the option to be able to shave off speed with your rear brake if necessary. What do you guys recommend for foot positioning?
Commit to a turn, or do not turn at all.  Having to shave off speed in the middle of a turn is a bandaid fix to bad entry speed judgement.

Quote from: Jabilli on May 26, 2010, 06:35:01 PM
3. I know in the middle of the apex it's best to roll on the throttle out of the turn- How do you determine the "sweet spot" where the throttle response is proper for that speed? Practice?
As burning1 stated, you should be on the throttle at the beginning of the turn.  The "sweet spot" is in reference to a certain range in the rpm band where you have the most power, or smooth delivery of power.  I find that to be between 5000 and 8000rpm.  I always keep at least one finger on the brake for a frame of reference on how much throttle I can add to a turn.

Quote from: Jabilli on May 26, 2010, 06:35:01 PM
It seems terribly awkward to roll the throttle with your wrist as you're pressing on the bar one way or the other- I have a tendency to roll the throttle with my knuckles (wrap my fingers around the throttle, then tuck in or roll out my fingers as opposed to using my wrist.) Is this a bad habit? It would seem to me that because of this problem (trying not to throttle while pushing the bar) that people have a tendency to be better at turning one direction than the other- Is this true?
You should be off the throttle when you initiate your turn (push the bar).  This makes it easier to only have to think about how much you are going to push the bar.  Then you can roll on throttle.  I palm the bars and throttle, that is, I use an open hand on the bars.  This helps me be light on the bars.
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good judgement trumps good skills every time.

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