Quote from: twocool on September 28, 2011, 09:56:32 AM

The only way to do that is to keep the engine making the full 42 HP...(less hp means less acceleration......an ther is no way to get more than 42 HP)

I've read a claim that for a stock GS500, max torque is at around 7.5k, but max HP is around9k rpm.
(but if you change gearing, those peaks will change, presumably!)

Sounds odd that it would have different peaks.. but in the Real World.. hey, it's what happens. Otherwise, dyno graphs would not bother to separately graph torque and HP output, right?

and at extremes, any physical mechanism will tend to lose efficiency. So, remember, redline is not "max output". redline is "happy parts about to get no happy; you are exceeding efficient spec, and when efficiency degrades enough, engine will blow up".
redline is not your friend

Quote from: Phil B on September 28, 2011, 10:10:17 AM

Quote from: twocool on September 28, 2011, 09:56:32 AM

The only way to do that is to keep the engine making the full 42 HP...(less hp means less acceleration......an ther is no way to get more than 42 HP)

I've read a claim that for a stock GS500, max torque is at around 7.5k, but max HP is around9k rpm.
(but if you change gearing, those peaks will change, presumably!)

Sounds odd that it would have different peaks.. but in the Real World.. hey, it's what happens. Otherwise, dyno graphs would not bother to separately graph torque and HP output, right?

and at extremes, any physical mechanism will tend to lose efficiency. So, remember, redline is not "max output". redline is "happy parts about to get no happy; you are exceeding efficient spec, and when efficiency degrades enough, engine will blow up".
redline is not your friend

Here is where it gets a little flaky....

Most if not all piston engines put out max torque (engine torque) at mid-high RPM...while max HP at really high RPM......I don'tknow exactly why, but this is true for engines....

But here is a point which I have been trying to make all along......Hp is torque times RPM....

Torques is  only one piece of  the HP...RM is the other.........

So even though the torque peaks at 7500........the HP continues to climb higher with additional RPM...(sometime drops a bit at or very near redline)

"Max output" would be Max horsepower....not max engine torque.....

Don't confuse max torque at the rear wheel, with max torque at the engine.....

Max torque at the rear wheel can only be achieved at max engine HP.......(combined with the proper gearing)...actually an incredibly low 1st gear would give tremendous wheel torque...and would only go a fraction of one mile per hour with the engine screaming....

Earlier I posted a link to a car racing guy who explained how you have to shift at redline to get the best acceleration, not shifting at best (engine) torque...........

Cookie

Quote from: twocool on September 28, 2011, 10:21:32 AM

Earlier I posted a link to a car racing guy who explained how you have to shift at redline to get the best acceleration, not shifting at best (engine) torque...........

Cookie

well that's a whole nuther thing. that's about sports strategy, practical uses, and human reaction times, blah blah.

You dont shift AT "best" output. You want to *USE* that output   So you shift after you've "used up" the best part.
Plus, it's also a matter of what you are shifting to. Odds are, the gear you are shifting to, would not be at peak output. So even though your current gear is past its peak, its still better than the alternative, until somewhere around redline, where the next gear will then be getting close to its own peak.

PS:

http://gstwin.com/dyno_run.htm

Quote from: Phil B on September 28, 2011, 10:28:01 AM

Quote from: twocool on September 28, 2011, 10:21:32 AM

Earlier I posted a link to a car racing guy who explained how you have to shift at redline to get the best acceleration, not shifting at best (engine) torque...........

Cookie

well that's a whole nuther thing. that's about sports strategy, practical uses, and human reaction times, blah blah.

You dont shift AT "best" output. You want to *USE* that output   So you shift after you've "used up" the best part.
Plus, it's also a matter of what you are shifting to. Odds are, the gear you are shifting to, would not be at peak output. So even though your current gear is past its peak, its still better than the alternative, until somewhere around redline, where the next gear will then be getting close to its own peak.

PS:

http://gstwin.com/dyno_run.htm

Yep...like most things...it all depends......what are you trying to accomplish at that moment....

I'm just giving examples of "what if"  like what if you want the fastest possible accelleration?  or what if you want the fastest lap time...No real world application of this for me...

I don't race...I don't drive particularily fast............I don't make jack rabbit starts......I like fuel economy........I typically shift at 5000 to 6000.....on rare occasions up to 8000 like if passing....

I curise in the 4000 to 5000 range...

I am not using anywhere near the HP available ..stock gearing works fine for me...

Life is good!

Cookie

holy crap this thread is still going, twocool you still aren't getting the horsepower formula right torque*rpm/5252

wow... i thought i was a persistent arguer but damn twocool you make me look like france...

Quote from: crzydood17 on September 28, 2011, 08:09:41 PM
holy crap this thread is still going, twocool you still aren't getting the horsepower formula right torque*rpm/5252

wow... i thought i was a persistent arguer but damn twocool you make me look like france...

OK...You're right on hP.....It has a "constant" in the formula..   5252.........(but only if you use lb-ft for torque..........

All this does is determine the "units" of measure...such as HP vs Kilowatts..........

I was just trying to show you that you were confusing torque with power............

The general formula for power is force x time x distance for straight line.....or..

Torque x RPM for rotation..........notice I did not specify any units of measurement.........I could be "miles-hours-tons"....or any other units you dream.........

HP has a very specific definition and a constant.....(even though you earlier said that HP was NOT a specific term and was not used widely)

In your earlier posts you came up with torque = power which is not correct....

You also made this statement:

"Horsepower is a mathematical equation of torque, it can be considered torque over time. If a gear ratio increases torque then it increases Wheel HP, not Crank HP. "

I said no......hp is not an "equation of torque"...I also pointed out that HP is not torque over time either.............

HP is torque x distance x time........or torque x RPM  (since RPM contains both time and distance)

So OK put in the constant to keep the units straight

But let's be clear on what we are arguing about (at least what I am arguing about)...

I contend that a 15 th sprocket will only help (Slightly) only at the begining of first gear.....and there will be no performance difference is all the middle gears, with either sprocket...until possibly 6 th gear...........

I contend that you are mistaken...thinking that the bike will produce more "power" in "every" gear if you lower the sprocket to 15..........

I contend that you are confusing the term "acceleration" with the term power....

I'd most certainly like to agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong!!

And.....It's been raining all week......rain for me means no work...no riding...too much spare time!


Cookie

lol .. While the combatants were busy composing the trilogy in 9 parts .. I went for a ride .. It was a warm sunny day .. And it was fun

snort chuckle chortle HaHahaha