A sacrifice of the people for the cause of defeating the "common enemy" of the people.  The propaganda fed to their own people against the US.

I think it is possible that China could "do a USSR" meltdown not so much because of the politics but because of the regionalism, it's such a huge place and population with so many differences with some areas getting richer whilst others still exist just post stone-age. The old soviet empire and many other parts of Europe are slipping into tribalism, how many very small countries exist now in what was Yugoslavia.

What does "Made in China" mean to me?  It means a cheap product of inferior quality.  Do I buy products made in China? Yes.  Would I prefer a product made in the USA? Absolutely!  Then why do I buy Made in China and other foreign made products?  I can't afford to have all "Made in the USA" products.

Here is an interesting article about if we had to buy only "Made in the USA".

http://money.msn.com/how-to-budget/what-if-you-had-to-buy-american.aspx

- Porkchop

Oh man! I know where you are coming from with "Made in USA" or in my case "UK" - I know a lot of stuff is so much cheaper you just can't afford the home-grown quality stuff but some countries are a lot better at supporting their own industries without the Govt breaking "world-trade" rules.

A couple of years ago I was in a group of a half-dozen bikers doing a tour in very rural western France. One afternoon we were sitting enjoying a coffee in a very small village opposite the "Marie" (mayors office/admin centre) where a wedding was in progress, one of us remarked that just about every village we had gone through either had a Marie or a Police Station that acted as information office, national govt office and the hand of local govt. One of our number then said, "Yeah and at least half seem to have a Renault dealership"

This is so very true, only yesterday Maggie and I drove to Mazingarde in northern France to visit her great uncle who has been lying there since 1915, we stopped for a drink and a bite on the way back, small village, off the beaten track, parked outside the Marie and sure enough, opposite the Renault dealership. The French buy French stuff, they do it out of choice because it makes sense to them. It might cost them a bit more but in the long run it may just be a better option. Perhaps there is a lesson somewhere.

Made in China to me usually means slightly poorer quality with unknown life expectancy.

If its electrical I have no problem with made in china.
If its hand tools then I won't buy it if its from an unknown manufacturer.
If its car parts I'll buy only if I can't source OEM or can't afford OEM or can't find a good quality 3rd party producer or the car is not worth spending the money on (the el cheapo 626 I bought got Chinese flee bay indicators).
Home product depends on what the product looks, feels and operates.
Toys what age group and value is the toy? Little kids toy that they will have for 6 months then throw, go the 2 dollar shop!
It is really a case by case. All in all its a quality, then money, then life cycle usefulness issue.

Quote from: ojstinson on October 04, 2011, 11:17:01 AM
And our doofus so called leader put the G.E. CEO in charge of the country's job creation, yeah, he's the guy that's shipping his company ( the one that paid no taxes ) jobs to China. And let's not forget that the guy in charge of our taxes is either a tax cheat or he can't figure out how to work Turbo Tax----take your pick.

On nice more conjrcture and blaming obama for what bush did.
Lets see, Tax cheat, put in the office by Bush, well he was put in the office next to the one he's been put in by Obama by bush. Sadly, a mess is best cleaned up by those who - well created it, or in this case were right next door and cheered it on when it was created.

GE CEO in charge of labor - here, there is some merit, GE may have been the biggest tax cheat, however they were not a tax cheat under Obama only, they were huge tax cheats when they were making profits, then they started losing $ and paid 0 in taxes the last 2 years . That was what caught everyone's attention. Pay attention to what is going on when times are good. BTW Google had a hugely profitable year, massive several billion in profits. Guess how much they paid in taxes. Under 2.5%. Read about it on google - it is called the Double irish with a dutch sandwich. That is our US corporations for you. Which as per Rick Perry are people too. It is not any reflection on obama, he didn't write the tax code. Its not a reflection of any bloody democrat that  tax cheat is in the highest office of financial policy. Here is who gets the blame for the next 20 years of financial malaise and tax cheating - The republican majority in both houses. Why - They blocked the nomination of elizabeth warren to the consumer protection agency which is tasked with being the watchdog for the financial industry.

Blaming obama for the economy being bad and jobs going to china is pure conjecture.
This is the appropriate analogy. You give me your car for 1/2 hour. I'll fill it up with gas, drain the oil, get on the road and run it pedal to the metal. When it blows up. I'll park it. and tell you to come and get it. Then as you're trying to get it on a tow truck or to a repair shop, I'll stand around asking you have you fixed it yet ? have you fixed it yet, Better Hurry up. We need it fixed.

It was wrecked by 8 years of bush, plain and simple, jobs have been exported under bush @ a furious pace, $ has been borrowed @ an unprecedented rate under Cheney (sorry he was the president) and government has been expanded @ an unheard of rate under bush. Obama has not been able to cut it down in the 2 years he had since bush and he has not shown much of an inklination to take on the right wing to try to cut it and the programs they want to cut are all what pertains to a social safety net like insurance for the poor and school programs.

Its easy to wreck something, it can be extremely hard to get it working again as we all know.

You think the 99% protesters are protesting their taxes being too high ? stop dreaming, they are protesting cos the corporations and wealthy pay no taxes. The Tea party that started as grass roots and then took corporate $ has rather instantly lost touch with what the people want.

Cool.
Buddha.

This is not a fair debate because you somehow got a bootleg copy of Obama's Playbook of fairy tale talking points.

It's really very simple, Obama chided Bush endlessly on nearly everything he did, yet even though he had full control of everything for two and a half years ( he couldn't even get most of his crap by a dem majority---and still can't ) he has kept in place 90 percent of what Bush laid down and is still blaming him for the way things are going---I thought this was supposed to be a whole new way to run the government. In addition to closely adhering to the Bush plan, he has added a whole new set of monumental job and economy killers,  not the least of which is that disastrous monstrosity of a *health care bill that only the freeloaders ( Obama's base ) of the country want. I don't envy the job you have so valiantly taken on----trying to defend a president and policies that are so absurdly disastrous to the welfare of the country, that if not so scary and sad it would be comical. As things grow worse and worse every week steadfast defenders like yourself are beginning to look more and more ridiculous----I somehow strangely admire your blind loyalty, the "Going down with the Ship" kind of loyalty.


*"Health care bill"---Has very little to do with health care and almost everything to do with paying back those who got him elected, same with the so called "Stimulus Plan ".



Just ask yourself; What's better now than under Bush's presidency?

Clinton / Greenspan set up the Bubble. Looked good under them, was doomed to fail under Bush or Obama. Blaming Bush for the fall which was hidden until Obama is also silly. And as I keep saying if you are blaming the POTUS you are falling for it like They want you too. But Bush Blamers really cannot see beyond that, or before it as the case may be. And I really don't think they want to. Much nicer to Blame Bush like the others on the band wagon and then you can all group hug and sing kumbaya.

Michael

Quote from: ojstinson on October 06, 2011, 10:03:43 AM
This is not a fair debate because you somehow got a bootleg copy of Obama's Playbook of fairy tale talking points.

It's really very simple, Obama chided Bush endlessly on nearly everything he did, yet even though he had full control of everything for two and a half years ( he couldn't even get most of his crap by a dem majority---and still can't ) he has kept in place 90 percent of what Bush laid down and is still blaming him for the way things are going---I thought this was supposed to be a whole new way to run the government. In addition to closely adhering to the Bush plan, he has added a whole new set of monumental job and economy killers,  not the least of which is that disastrous monstrosity of a *health care bill that only the freeloaders ( Obama's base ) of the country want. I don't envy the job you have so valiantly taken on----trying to defend a president and policies that are so absurdly disastrous to the welfare of the country, that if not so scary and sad it would be comical. As things grow worse and worse every week steadfast defenders like yourself are beginning to look more and more ridiculous----I somehow strangely admire your blind loyalty, the "Going down with the Ship" kind of loyalty.


*"Health care bill"---Has very little to do with health care and almost everything to do with paying back those who got him elected, same with the so called "Stimulus Plan ".



Just ask yourself; What's better now than under Bush's presidency?

No sense here either.
Health care industry doesn't have Obama in their pocket, they have every POTUS in their pocket. Atleast the parts that were supposedly the "payback" parts are being struck down by state judges. Make a big mistake and the courts will step in, make a lot of smal lones and it will slide by everyone till it affects a huge segment of the population.
BTW pre existing condition inclusion, and parents policy till 26 are really about health care and are the first 2 items to go in.

Clinton did start the house bubble though, yea that inheritance and tax exemption for primary residence sale and resulting profits is huge. However Bush seriously accelerated it instead of hitting the brakes on it, one more iteration of intergenerational theft.

Anyway You need to compare Obama's options and performance against McCain's because he was the right wings alternative. You cannot compare Obama to some hypothetical past or future republican. Of the 2 likely choices presented this was the better one @ that time.
The govt budget has not accelerated as much as it did under bush under obama, the whole healthcare issue has been arranged to get the really bad items thrown out by judges, the good parts go in first and the bad parts last. If they get past the judges. I can only see 1 way to have done it any better. Make it illegal for insurance companies to confer with doctors and hospitals. As in, no one is going to take insurance directly and no one is on any "network" ... people buy insurance whatever, but they pay the doctors/hospitals. They then get the docs to the insurance companies electronically right from the doctors office. That will prevent doctors from charging one guy 400 and nother $14 for the same procedure.

He was supposed to close guantanamo, however no congressman wanted the prisoners to get to their jail.

In any case, he is no worse than McCain and possibly better than most options available @ the start of primary season in 08 - Ron Paul comes to mind as one that will ahve been better.

Cool.
Buddha.

Made in China ? Fuggedaboudit.

http://www.amazon.ca/Your-World-About-Whole-Smaller/dp/0307357511

Quote from: ojstinson on October 06, 2011, 10:03:43 AM

he has kept in place 90 percent of what Bush laid down and is still blaming him for the way things are going---I thought this was supposed to be a whole new way to run the government.

This could not be more true, sadly that is why I am hoping Ron Paul gets the republican nomination, that will then move me to vote for him. Else I'll sit this one also out unless Perry, Palin or Backman are the republican Nominees, then I will get my self to vote for Omaba.

I'd like for someone to explain a "job killer" to me, cos it looks like we seem to br "creating" all our jobs in China. So a job killer would be great for the US, we're not creating chinese jobs.

Quote from: ojstinson on October 06, 2011, 10:03:43 AM
Just ask yourself; What's better now than under Bush's presidency?

This is easy. In my life, everything is, I spent 10 months in 05 unemployed, and 5 months in 07, From 09 jan through now I have been employed almost continously, there was a month or so in 09 sept, another month in March 10 and another few weeks in sept 10. However I have a few things different about my career. I am not worried about being exported to China, I was worried about being exported to India, and the thnig is, in India I can almost make as much money and that $ goes a lot further. However I dont give credit to Obama for that, I give credit to India's cost of living rising and wiping out the 30-40% cost saving from outsourcing.

One thing people need to understand is -  OK its 3-4 things.

1. The stock market is not the economy.
2. The President can do very little about the economy and most all of that is negative.
3. The president should stop taking credit and hence not be assigned any blame for the economy tanking.
4. Rules and changes in rules dont neccesarily make it "job killing" and we need to remember the lack of rules and lack of enforcement of the existing rules are what caused a financial meltdown. We need rules, else the rich will run rough shod over the rest of the people - as is happening now.
Cool.
Buddha.

This is so stupid, I don't know why I get into these never ending, no one ever convinces anyone of anything arguments----- it's like the; There is a God/ God doesn't exist debate, it's as infinite as the universe.

Quote from: ojstinson on October 06, 2011, 03:15:39 PM
This is so stupid, I don't know why I get into these never ending, no one ever convinces anyone of anything arguments----- it's like the; There is a God/ God doesn't exist debate, it's as infinite as the universe.

That is a good point. You cannot convince any one cos you just have a gut feeling. The bad elements have all been installed by Cheney/Bush and unfortunately Obama continued them. He also continued the bail out ... McCain will also have done the exact same thing, we were all told by independent economists that that was the right thing to do. WTF ... the righ tthing to do is to arrest these fools who asked for bail outs and let their companies go bankrupt.

Seriously I never have been motivated to vote so far, if it is Herman Cain or Mitt Romney against Obama I will not bother, I dont think any of those 2 is worse or better than Obama. If it is Ron Paul I will be the first in line to vote for him. BTW I had jury duty tuesday/wednesday - yesterday, and there was a guy among the 100+ in the pool that looks like Ron Paul, I so badly wanted to get a pic with him, but sadly I was the first freaking juror called and I went and was stuck in court all tuesday and most of wednesday ... anyway RP gets my vote if he is on, Cain and Romney get the same indifference from me as the current POTUS, and Backman, Perry, Palin get me to vote for Obama but I wont be first in line.

I am a true independent, Hillary on the democrap ticket in 08 will have got me to vote for McCain, so would have RP on the republican ticket regardless of who was on democrap, however I do have a basis in fact for who I am voting for and why, not just blind allegiance.

Want my vote, work for it, or wait for the other guy to screw up ...
So far the republicans in congress are rather strongly pointing out that they favor the rich, and Cheney/bush did that so extremely well ... Its government for the rich, by the rich, to the rich. Its called lobbying, unless you have a lobbyist you dont have a voice. Giving tax breaks to the rich isn't going to make the rich employ more poor people ...

Cool.
Buddha.

How the political system works...

Pollie 1: The pre4vious guys used to kick you in the guts, Mon, Wed and Fir. I'll only kick you in the guts on Tue so you have time to be good for the weekend.

Pollie 2: I'll kick you in the guts on Wednesday and Thursday, but it will only be half as hard and each time I'll give you a bag of jelly beans.

Full on Freedom Pollie: I won't kick you in the guts at all.

Pollie 1 & 2 who are from major parties - and in league with MSM - launch hit Pieces on Pollie 3, stop pollie 3 from entering "Presidential Debates" etc.

The pollies, all of them, work for Big Pharma, Big Money, etc. They only Pretend to work For The People. Again, stop Blaming Them and look Behind Them and put the blame where it starts.

Old Ronnie was not good. Bush 1 neither, nor Clinton. But again we have this Dubbya Burning all the time. Sheesh. The previous don't get any passes. Ask those who went through the S&L what they think of old Ronnie... but again, it was Big Money behind it all.

Anyway. This has nothing to do with Made IN China....

Michael

Yea but ... yea but ... yea but ... Cheney went to 2 wars @ false pretences.

Cool.
Buddha.

Back to the original proposition, I think most of us have shown a disquiet at the very least about Chinese goods and we are all sitting in front of computers. I recently "built" - assembled would be more accurate - this custom one of mine - eight major components, all from China and south east Asia and I've just looked at the associated sound system, mouse, keyboard and screen - You've figured where this is going 

Fess-up time   --  By build/assemble what I actually did was connect push fit connectors together under the eye and guidance of Maggie's 14 yr old grandson.

Quote from: The Buddha on October 07, 2011, 02:32:24 PM
Yea but ... yea but ... yea but ... Cheney went to 2 wars @ false pretences.

Cool.
Buddha.

And Clinton?

Kosovo was not False Pretenses?

Sending Cruise Missiles into Sudan and Afghanistan and bombing Iraq from afar?

Or maybe you forget it was Bill Clinton who started all the "Iraq has WMD and is seeking nukes" stuff you so readily blame on Bush/Cheney. It was in his 1998 State of the Uniion. Maybe you also forget it was Bill Clinton who signed H.R. 4655 into law on October 31, 1998, which instituted a policy of "regime change" against Iraq.

See. No POTUS gets a pass cause none are worthy of getting a pass. You cannot blame one without blaming those before either. Even though they are mere puppets of the string pullers who you do not blame. Continue to blame the POTUS of the moment and the string puller's ruse has worked.

Michael

Quote from: mister on October 07, 2011, 04:02:39 PM

Quote from: The Buddha on October 07, 2011, 02:32:24 PM
Yea but ... yea but ... yea but ... Cheney went to 2 wars @ false pretences.

Cool.
Buddha.

And Clinton?

Kosovo was not False Pretenses?

Sending Cruise Missiles into Sudan and Afghanistan and bombing Iraq from afar?

Or maybe you forget it was Bill Clinton who started all the "Iraq has WMD and is seeking nukes" stuff you so readily blame on Bush/Cheney. It was in his 1998 State of the Uniion. Maybe you also forget it was Bill Clinton who signed H.R. 4655 into law on October 31, 1998, which instituted a policy of "regime change" against Iraq.

See. No POTUS gets a pass cause none are worthy of getting a pass. You cannot blame one without blaming those before either. Even though they are mere puppets of the string pullers who you do not blame. Continue to blame the POTUS of the moment and the string puller's ruse has worked.

Michael

Kosovo was not false pretences. It was favoritism, much like the Georgia vs Russia of last year where we didn't intervene.

Yes saddam was trying to get nuclear weapons, however he wasn't very close and he wasn't colluding with al quaida as Cheney told us. Worse yet, saddam kept Iran under check. Very shortsightedly the war against Iraq has worked in Iran's favor. Regime change in Iraq would have worked in the favor of the west without handing the upper hand to Iran.

The US recomends "regime change" in a lot of cases, not all of those are to be done with random invasions.

The missiles into afganisthan on intel that Osama Bin Laden was there in a tent = appropriate response in the case of the attack on the USS cole.
Remember even the worst Bush hater wont complain about the war in afganisthan, jus tthe fact that there was time frame or  exit strategy in that one. The Iraq quagmire is what they refer to as the false pretences.

Clinton started the bubble on housing, definetely, Clinton also gave a lot of hope to illegals by signing into law in those last days the last significant piece of legislation on the immigration front, which shortened the lines for a lot of legal immigrants. sadly it came too late to have any impact on me.

Of course not that you have mentioned it, but Clinton did a lot of things ... Monica, Jennifer just to name 2. Clinton also shafted Veterans in a nutshell.

Cool.
Buddha.

Made in china = probably not gonna last too long but could surprise.

I see your point though mister - The problem occours when each subsequent fool adds to what the previous fool did cos they are all in the pockets of big business, wasn't this why they imposed term limts on presidents.
I didn't get to the US till Clintstone was in office, but bush continued clintols folly atleast on housing and maybe Iraq. Bush's path was picked up by obama, and will also have been picked up by McCain, so in the last 20 years we have really had 1 president on the important issues. Of course social and religious issues they were all opposites. But where it counts they were the same.
Cool.
Buddha.