I've been having trouble cold-starting my bike and I think I've traced the problem to a hole in the insulation of the wire leading to my pulse generator coils. Here are a couple pics of the damage:





It doesn't show very clearly in the pics, but from looking at it close up I can't see any obvious damage to the actual metal parts of the wiring. Still, when I measured the voltage as described in the Haynes manual, one of the 2 connections it says to measure (between brown and the blue/black wires) was within spec at 345 ohms, but the other connection (between the green/white and blue/black wires) was at 0, indicating a short circuit. So I'm assuming and hoping that that hole in the outer insulation is related to the problem, and that it shouldn't be too hard to fix. One other thing that might be relevant: the starting troubles started after a few days of rain, so I'm wondering if the wiring got wet as a result of the rain, and this caused the starting problems.

I have zero experience working on wiring, so any advice would be much appreciated. I was planning on just squeezing some dielectric grease into the hole and covering it with duct tape, but don't know if this would actually work. I'm wondering if the wires just got wet, or maybe if there's some rust or corrosion to deal with. Should I just replace the entire wire, or will some grease and duct tape do the trick?

While I don't think it's related to your cold starting issue, the best way to fix that would be to strip back the insulation and check for damage to the wires. If there is damage, then replace the bad spot with an equal or thicker gauge wire and solder it in. If there is no damage, just replace the insulation with some wire looming, zip ties, electrical tape, etc. Dielectric grease is for keeping to metal connections clean, and duct tape is used for.......everything but wiring.

Back to the cold start issue: what exactly have you checked and ruled out?

We're getting cold and damp here (yes - Seattle). Have to use the choke more than in the summer.
Seafoamed all 3 bikes - that helped all of them to clean out some of that summer gunk built up. They all are happier now.

Be sure you have good has and put in some additive for that crappy political junk in our gas: ethanol. I use Eastwood's fuel additive. There are lots of them available. It does help.

That wiring would not cause a cold problem. If wiring was bad - any temperature would have the problem.

Crap, I was hoping I had found the cause of this cold-starting issue. So what exactly does the pulse generator do, what possible problems could result from a short in one of the wires? I'll open up the insulation and see if I can spot any damage, and go from there.

But if that's not causing the cold-starts, I guess I should keep looking. Adidasguy, no amount of choke and/or throttle can get the bike started, even when it's not even very cold. At this point it will only start during the afternoon on a warm day, say low 70s and up. (I'm in northern California, so it's not all that cold even during winter.) Even on a freshly charged battery it won't start in the morning or evening, or any time during a chilly day.

I've checked and cleaned the battery terminals, starter relay, regulator/rectifier. Maybe I should try cleaning the carbs, but I did so the last time I adjusted the valves, about 1000 miles ago, and they were totally clean. (I'm on a 2008f, so not a lot of time for gunk to build up.) I'll try running some sea foam through the tank, but I'm not very optimistic that that will work. I looked at the engine ground wire connection and it seemed fine, but I guess I could try cleaning that connection as well. Anything else I can try before taking it to a shop?

If one of those wires were damaged, the bike would only run on one cylinder (if at all).

I wanted to say a weak battery, but you said it struggles on full charge as well. What's the voltage of the battery wth the ignition on and off? If it's not a problem with the battery, I would look at the fuel enricher (choke) or the idle circuit.

Pulse generator generates , well..... pulses.
It is the timing for your engine.
If it is shorted: no pulses = she no workie  She no go and you no ride.
Its one of those things that works or it doesn't.

Not sure what to look at. Others are more experienced in that area. Possible things in the carb area are gunked up. Gunk does get sticky when cold so carb things might be sticking when cold and not sticking when it is warm. Maybe try a heat lamp or a 60 watt bulb in that area (lay in there on top of the starter cover for half an hour?) and see if warming up the carbs makes a difference.

I did seafoam all my bikes. It is getting colder here and I noticed I needed more choke. After doing that and giving them all a good ride Saturday (we had SUN! The sky was really blue!) Junior starts at 45 degrees with almost no choke. If he needs choke, after 5 seconds I have to turn it off or he goes over 3k rpm. Seafoam really helped. Junior runs so much better now. He's a '92 and I've never taken the carbs off. Even the valves make less clatter than before. I never though seafoam would make such a difference.

Big Rich, I've been assuming it's not the battery for a few reasons: It's a relatively new battery (2-3 months old); charging it on a battery tender doesn't help much; I had had similar problems with my previous battery, which is why I replaced it. I did measure the voltage (an adidasguy's advice from a previous thread) and got just over 12 volts not running, just over 14 volts running. But still the same starting problems. I've heard it's possible to get those voltage readings even on a faulty battery, and that only a load test can settle the matter. I'm thinking about trying a jump-start with my car. If it starts without problems on a jump-start, would that prove the battery is faulty? Or might it be because the car battery has more crank?

Adidasguy, I just found a thread in which you recommend that LiFe battery. I'm wondering if just buying one of those might bypass the symptoms even if it doesn't fix whatever underlying electrical problem is causing the issue. I'd be willing to pay the premium for one of those batteries if it would put an end to my starting issues--it would at least be cheaper than taking it to a shop.

I'll also try running some sea foam tomorrow, as I have some of the stuff sitting around. If that doesn't work, I'll go ahead and check out the carbs--maybe they've gotten gunked up since the last time I had them open, although I doubt it as I ride every day.

EDIT: I'm also wondering, would switching from the stock 17.5 pilot jet to the 20 pilot maybe fix the problem? If so, I might as well do that while I'm messing with the carbs.

I'm starting to get confused as to what is happening (or not happening).
Maybe you could refresh us on the exact problem. I'm not sure if the starter is going, engine sputtering, doesn't keep running, nothing happens when pressing start button,  or what.
Maybe a short video?

Quote from: adidasguy on October 31, 2011, 05:05:45 PM
I'm starting to get confused as to what is happening (or not happening).
Maybe you could refresh us on the exact problem. I'm not sure if the starter is going, engine sputtering, doesn't keep running, nothing happens when pressing start button,  or what.
Maybe a short video?

Sorry I'm having so much trouble describing this issue clearly. I'll try again:

When I turn on the ignition and hit the starter (with full choke on and giving a little throttle), the engine turns over a couple times but the bike won't start. After a few tries I'll start getting a clicking sound. I'm always able to push-start the bike when this happens. Every night I re-charge the battery with a trickle charger, but in the cold I still get the same problem. It will, however, start when the weather is warm (at least low 70s) and the battery is freshly charged.

I've been assuming it's not the battery, but now I'm wondering if it is. One thing that has changed since the problem started about a month ago is that I moved to a new apartment closer to my job. I used to have a 20-mile each-way commute on the freeway, and I never had this problem. Now it's just 3-4 miles on city streets. So maybe after a couple months of the shorter commute the battery was under-charged for a long enough time to damage the battery? So I'm wondering if this is why now I have this problem even after charging. So should I try a new battery? I've called around about getting it load tested, but the Auto Zones in my area won't touch motorcycles.

That's easy- tell them it's for a riding lawn mower.

It does sound to me like a battery issue, but Adidas is more of an electrical guru than myself.

A few turn-overs then clicking is the same thing as my old plymouth when I was a kind. Bad battery - you're hearing the starter relay going on and off (See other thread where I discussed it).

Batteries work better when warm. My dad always said in really cold weather - turn on your lights for a minute. That little use of the battery would cause it to warm up a little.

Get out your volt meter. What's the voltage? With bike running, what's the voltage? Should be around 14v. If not, then it is not charging. You could have a bad regulator or a bad stator. WIKI tells you how to check the stator. Basically - 3 wires. Resistance between any 2 wires is 6 to 10 ohms. If one pair is zero = shorted out. If higher, then not a good connection so probably a coil in it is going out. If stator is OK and you don't get a good charging voltage, then replace the regulator.

If things are OK so far, measure voltage. Go to bed. Measure voltage. If down, then bad battery. Be sure battery has acid and is the right battery.

Be sure you don't leave your bike in PARK. That will drain the battery. Indication: tail light is on dim. On an "F", the running light in the headlight is also on. DON'T DO THAT!

If battery is bad, save yourself the grief and do not buy a cheap-o wallymart battery. Spend the extra and then you never ever have to worry about your battery again. I've read too many posts of people who bought a "new" chap battery and then post about all the battery and charging problems. That's exactly why I spend extra for a top notch battery. They last longer, have more power and charge faster.

I don't think your short commute is a problem unless a bad battery or bad charging system. I ride to work and gym then home. That's 0.6 miles each segment. Don't have battery problems or charging problems.

By the way: A voltage regulator can fail in various ways. One way is plain dead. Another way is allowing voltage through but not regulating it so voltage at battery goes high - to 18 volts or more (I had that happen). Another way is to short out. When that happens, it can drain the battery. To see if that is the problem, first you'd see the battery voltage go down from night to morning. Then, do it again with the regulator disconnected from the battery (a 2 pin connector on the regulator). If voltage stays up until morning, then bad regulator is shorting out the battery and draining it.

I don't think it's a charging problem, for a couple reasons. I've been measuring the voltage constantly for the last week, before and after every ride unless I'm in a hurry. The voltage has consistently been at 12.5-12.9 volts not running, 14.5 when running. Also, sometimes I'll charge it with the tender even with these voltage numbers, and still have the starting problem right after charging. I'll check the regulator and stator anyway, though. Also, I never leave it on "park."

I also haven't been using a cheapo battery, it's that Scorpion sealed AGM battery that a lot of members around here use and recommend. Maybe I just got a faulty battery, though. Although it did work when I first got it a few months ago. Maybe it just went bad before its time, even though I ride every day. Maybe it's a short in the regulator. But then, judging from your description of that issue, if that were the problem I wouldn't be having trouble cold-starting right after a full charge on the trickle-charger.

One thing I'm wondering: could a spark-plug issue cause something like this? My guess is no, but I don't know what else it could be, unless a faulty battery. I looked at the engine ground wire--it's not loose and doesn't look corroded. Anyway, I just ordered that LiFe battery you recommended in another thread, hopefully those 210 CCA's will fix whatever's keeping the engine from starting 

Seems to point to a battery that died before its time.
I think having to keep the battery on a charger is a clue.
The battery could have a defective cell - it may have the right voltage but can't store enough current.
Think this way: a cell goes bad so it is equivalent to a tiny battery - like a AAA compared to a "D". Both same voltage - the "D" has more current. Your battery has multiple cells. As I recall, each cell is about 1.5 volts and being stacked in series, you get 12 volts. If a cell or two goes bad and can't hold much current, then you can still have the right voltage but not enough power.

That sucks that the Scorpion battery went bad after only a few months. Hopefully there's a warranty still in effect. Either way, my new 14 AH LiFe battery is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. If that battery fixes the problem I'll know for sure it was a battery issue.

I was wondering, will any battery tender work on the LiFe battery? I noticed on the betterystuff page for the product that they also sell a charger specially made for these batteries. It's expensive though ($78). Will I have any problems just using my cheapo tender? (this one: http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-021-0123-Junior-Charger/dp/B000CITK8S/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1320264468&sr=8-2)

And finally, should I be at all worried about the 0 ohms I'm getting on one of the wire connections for the pulse generator coils (described in OP)? Even if it's not causing the starting problem, and isn't keeping either cylinder from running, could it cause any trouble down the road?

Need new stator. Zero ohms is a direct short. had you mentioned that before? I don't recall seeing it. That must be replaced. That short could sapping up all your power. Problem is that thing is on the left side soaked in your oil - not fun to replace that.

However, you should not need a tender for the LeFe. It holds a charge for a year. I had one somewhere and found it 9 months later. In the box. Never on a charger. Put it in. Bike started up first time. You can't say that about a lead acid battery.
A regular charger should be OK with these batteries. Doubt you'll need it once you replace the stator. When yuou get one see what connector you need. In the end, it is a 3 prong molex type. Some stators have that. Some have 3 bullet connectors and there is a wire burried in the harness that goers from bullet to the 3 pin connector. Found that out examining stators on the shelf as I get ready for the next video: installing a MosFet regulator. I had to know the right connections from the stator.

Playing with a tag line for GSTwins. Not done yet but.....
(It is 16:9 wide screen - not sure why Photobucket made it 4:3)
click link or click image to play.
http://s1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb442/adidasguy/Videos/?action=view&current=gstwins.mp4


thread hijack?

I'm confused--what does the stator have to do with the pulse generator coils? That's where I'm getting a zero ohms reading on one of the wires (as I mentioned in the first post of this thread). The manual says that indicates either a defective coil or a damaged wire. Since I have a hole in the insulation on the wires leading to the pulse generator, I was wondering if it was a wiring thing. But you're saying this indicates a problem with the stator? I actually don't think there's a problem with my alternator. The only reason I've needed to recharge on a tender is because I've been trying to start 4-5 times when it won't start in the cold, and that drains a lot of energy from the battery.

In other news, I now think it may not be a battery issue after all. When you mentioned the regulator in your last post, I remembered that the guy I bought my GS from mentioned that he had cleaned some corrosion off of the regulator connection, and that had fixed a cold starting problem he was having. So I checked the regulator, and the resistance on one of the connections, which should be 40 ohms, was at 10 ohms. I called the PO and he said that was exactly what he was getting, but that after he cleaned the connection it went back up to 40 ohms. So now I'm thinking a little corrosion made it's way into the wires, behind the connector pins where you can't clean it. Maybe that corrosion has gotten worse, and has caused the problem to come back. So my plan is to either replace the regulator, or try to bypass the connectors and splice the wires directly together at a point where the resistance is at spec. I may post a new thread as I plan this project.

Sorry about misreading that. Have not heard of measuring resistance of the pulse generator, just the stator.

The cleaning of a connector seems backwards. Dirty connections have poor conductivity hence higher resistance. Lower resistance = cleaner connection = better conduction of electricity.

Cleaning a dirty connector would lower the resistance.

I would not cut and splice. Better to clean or replace the connector. if you have to replace the regulator and you spliced the wires - you're screwed.

The regulator doesn't have much to do with starting. It takes the AC from the stator/alternator and converts it to regulated DC to run the bike and recharge the battery.

So if it's not the regulator, maybe it is the battery then. The LiFe battery I ordered arrived yesterday, but I haven't tried it yet in case fixing the regulator fixed the problem, so I could return it. But I'll try installing the new battery when I get home and see if that works.

I'd not return the parts.
Always have a spare.
If new regulator or newer than the one you have, use it and use the better battery.
It takes the guessing out of the problems.
By the time you figure postage and your time - having spares around is a better choice.

"I've replaced these with good parts so I know that's not the problem - must be elsewhere."

I'm slowly doing parts upgrades just so I don't have a problem in the future. Preventative maintenance. LiFe batteries. MosFet regulators. 2009 calipers for my older bikes (why rebuild a 1992 caliper when newer ones with pads, with 1000 miles are like $14.95?). Newer master cylinders, SS brake lines. Pressure switch banjo bolts for rear brake light instead of the plastic switch. LEDs everywhere. And so forth.....

I installed the new LiFe battery and so far there are no cold starting problems. It did struggle a little bit this morning after not riding at all yesterday, but it did start the first time. So I'm still wondering if maybe there's something a bit off with the wiring, but as long as the bike keeps starting I'm not gonna worry about it. Adidasguy, thanks so much for your incredibly generous feedback. Between your responses to my threads and reading your other posts, where I found out about the LiFe battery, you've saved me an expensive trip to the shop