Part of a story from bike web rider...

They like the Li batteries, but have same trouble as me seeing what they do better...


This story remains to be completed, no doubt. In the meantime, here's our report.

Introduction
Lithium-Iron-type (LFP) motorcycle batteries have become all the rage in 2011 and motorcyclists are wondering if the old lead-acid bricks are now as out of date as incandescent light bulbs.

It's a bit puzzling actually when you think about it, because there doesn't seem to be all that much wrong with good ol' lead and acid...other than the fact that they're made from lead. And acid.

Both of us must be pretty lucky, because with 5 motorcycles total currently in two garages, and 6 more counting Burn's collection, we have experienced no lead-acid battery problems in as many years as any of us can recall.

Of course, this may be due in part to our mania about battery maintenance, including keeping a close watch over water levels and running Battery Tenders around the clock, 24/7/365.

That will make a difference and as an example, I give you the lead-acid battery in the 1984 BMW R65 (info). A new battery was installed in 2002 and the vintage BMW is only lightly used in good weather. It's the only motorcycle to get winterized, and it sits in the cold garage on a Battery Tender from Fall until Spring.

But the Westco battery has never failed. The bike always starts right up and I never had a single problem with the bike or the battery (knock wood!). I did replace it with an identical Westco in 2002; a lead-acid battery of exactly the same type, and I did that only because it seemed like 8 years was a long time to go on a battery.

But there were absolutely no battery problems to report with the Westco and probably no real reason to replace it other than my feeling that "Could this battery really be 8 years old and still cranking?"

And this with a bike that runs an electrical deficit; in typical Airhead fashion, it drains the battery until the revs reach 2,000 or so. I guess I must be riding it pretty fast (or as fast as an R65 can go!).

Regarding the possible lead and the acid environmental issues -- are they really issues? Old lead-acid batteries are recycled. What happens to Lithium-Ion batteries? Does anyone know? Are local recycling centers ready for an influx of Li-Ion batteries?

So when you get right down to it, what are the benefits of going to an LFP battery? Probably the most significant and certainly the most tangible benefit is the weight savings. But really -- is a few pounds going to make that much of a difference in a street bike? Let's take a look and see if there's anything else that justifies the 300% to 400% cost increase of a Li-Ion motorcycle battery.

Ha, Ha.

All I'm saying, is they fill a niche in the market. If you don't like it, don't buy it. You own a GS500, right? People everywhere say it's not a necessity either......

http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-battery/li-ion-motorcycle-battery/shorai-vs-ballistic-li-ion-motorcycle-battery.htm

Here's the whole article..interesting reading...

Cookie

I've been watching this thread evolve with amusement.

Dear ExtremelyCold: You're working very hard in a campaign to convince us we are all stupid for wanting a better battery. It seems to be an obsession. I'm not sure what the point is.

I used regular batteries. I switched to Shorai and know they are better after using them. I feel the extra expense is worth it. I worked on Trey for 2 weeks. Lots of trying to start him up. Never once did the Shorai fail me. Never did I put it on a charger.

I guess I am stupid in your opinion because I like LSL and ASV levers. Why spend $100 for a lever wien a cheap Chinese $9 set will work? I find the better levers work better, feel better and fit better (without having to file them to get a proper fit).

I am also stupid in your opinion for spending money for LED indicator lamps when plain old 10 cent lamps will work just as well. I find the LEDs are brighter and have a purer color which I like.

I can go on and on and on on all the things we do because we like it and are willing to spend a little more for it.

It all comes down to what you prefer and what you want to spend. It is OK if you are happy with Hong Kong cheap levers, incandescent lamps, WallyMart batteries and old used tires - because these are all "inexpensive and work just as well". We accept your decisions. We are not proselytizing to get you to change, as you are to us.

You've said enough about your hatred of LeFe batteries. Fine. We know you hate them.

Now leave it be and let those of us who do find them better get back to a meaningful discussion regarding our experiences and questions about LiFe batteries. Some of us like something a little better and are willing to spend the extra for it. That's our prerogative.

Quote from: adidasguy on January 24, 2012, 10:14:17 PM
We are not proselytizing to...

Had to grab a dictionary for that one   

-Jessie

Quote from: adidasguy on January 24, 2012, 10:14:17 PM
I've been watching this thread evolve with amusement.

Dear ExtremelyCold: You're working very hard in a campaign to convince us we are all stupid for wanting a better battery. It seems to be an obsession. I'm not sure what the point is.

I used regular batteries. I switched to Shorai and know they are better after using them. I feel the extra expense is worth it. I worked on Trey for 2 weeks. Lots of trying to start him up. Never once did the Shorai fail me. Never did I put it on a charger.

I guess I am stupid in your opinion because I like LSL and ASV levers. Why spend $100 for a lever wien a cheap Chinese $9 set will work? I find the better levers work better, feel better and fit better (without having to file them to get a proper fit).

I am also stupid in your opinion for spending money for LED indicator lamps when plain old 10 cent lamps will work just as well. I find the LEDs are brighter and have a purer color which I like.

I can go on and on and on on all the things we do because we like it and are willing to spend a little more for it.

It all comes down to what you prefer and what you want to spend. It is OK if you are happy with Hong Kong cheap levers, incandescent lamps, WallyMart batteries and old used tires - because these are all "inexpensive and work just as well". We accept your decisions. We are not proselytizing to get you to change, as you are to us.

You've said enough about your hatred of LeFe batteries. Fine. We know you hate them.

Now leave it be and let those of us who do find them better get back to a meaningful discussion regarding our experiences and questions about LiFe batteries. Some of us like something a little better and are willing to spend the extra for it. That's our prerogative.

Dear "sneaker"....sorry if I touched a raw nerve here.   If you remember I said I'm playing "devils advocate".

I gave a list of reasons why I feel the Fancy battery is not worth the money.  Not that there is anything in particular wrong with the SHorai battery, just that it offers no meaningful advantage to conventional. I also gave an article by experts far smarter and more experienced than me which pretty much comes to the same conclusion.  I thought it important  to offer the "other side of the story".

In return  expected to get some facts as to why the Li batter is actually better....So far I've gotten..good for race bike, custom bike....starts good....small...light....you can fit a couple of tools in the space, and modern for the sake of modern.  I don't see any of these reasons applying to me or my GS500.....more importantly no improvement in anything significant over lead acid battery...IN THIS APPLICATION.  Remember we are not talking an extra dollar or two...we are talking 4x the cost.....

I don't remember mentioning light bulbs, or brake levers, or tires.  But since you did....LED bulbs ARE an improvement over old fashioned...worth the $$....good tires ARE an improvement over old or crap tires...worth the $$....  brake levers...I dunno...never looked into ..

I don't "hate" batteries.  Batteries are inanimate objects.  I choose the correct battery for the application, based on facts.  As for lithium type batteries....I "love" them.  They make some things possible which were previously impossible.   I have lots of 'em...in my phone, in my cameras, for my model airplanes, and helicopters..........Lithium batteries are a huge improvemet over previous types in these applications.  I have some experience with electric powered bicycles...Li is the way to go......In my work I deal with persons with disabilites......Li batteries are tops for power wheel chairs...light weight makes a huge difference here...people can get themselves and their chairs into their cars....REAL benefit fo rthe $$$


Can't we just have an open discussion here, without the "name calling"?  I didn't call anybody "stupid"...you came up with that. 

You presented one (narrow)point of view...I presented an opposing point of view..(after researching the topic a bit deeper)

You came in with "Shorai batteries are the greatest thing since sliced bread".....and I countered...with "Whoa, wait a minute...let's take a closer look at this".  That's a discussion, point counter point, not the kind of stuff in your reply, which is off the subject, and all "fired up".

So if you want to counter my arguements of why the Li battery is not worth the money...go for it.  Present the facts. Please tell me again what  the Shorai battery does that my OEM battery does not..

Just to add some more wood to the fire. If you took the time to read the whole article I posted, there are many interesting comments at the end.  Take note about the troubles with over charging, discharging too far, as related to safety.  Also the possibility of "shorting out one cell"....also  the trouble with the flimsy terminals in the early versions....

So there....I feel better now!  So now it's off to the tard farm!

Cookie

Not actually having the battery installed yet (ships today), I can't tell you how much better it is than a $45 lead acid, but I can tell you why I bought it.
1. Size- being a smaller battery (1#) it can be mounted in a custom location, giving me room under the seat to fab up an actual storage compartment.
2. Materials- having no acids/liquids, there is nothing to leak out, no drain hose to attach, and no more battery acid scarring up my frame/exhaust (yes it does happen)
3. Ease of use- the Shorai has an expected life of 8-10 years, and has built in technology to make sure that it gives the best performance it can.
4. Cranking amps- 14A is 5 more than the standard GS batt i believe, and this is essential in my situation. I have an '89, and countless times I've had to drag out the jumper cables and hook up to my car when the bike needs to crank and crank while I diagnose problems.
5. Deep cycle abilities- the Shorai has built in technology to be able to crank and crank until its down to 15% of its charge, without losing steam. When you charge it back up, there is no sulfation like in a lead acid battery, and it can charge back up to 100% more times without depleting the batteries life.
6. Customization- More amps, means more farkle can be put on, without having to modify the charging system.

Given these reasons, you could say that you don't have any similar problems which is fine; everyone, and everyone's bike, are different in their own ways. I won't bash you for questioning others' idea of a good purchase, because you're helping keep people in check. Some people may have a perfectly running bike and be able to start on the first press, and not need any of the features listed above, which is great. For the rest of us, this battery poses a good addition to our riding experience.  I felt it was a much needed addition to my bikes well being, and I can justify the cost until the cows come home.

Quote from: twocool on January 25, 2012, 05:51:07 AM

Quote from: adidasguy on January 24, 2012, 10:14:17 PM


You presented one (narrow)point of view...I presented an opposing point of view..(after researching the topic a bit deeper)

You came in with "Shorai batteries are the greatest thing since sliced bread".....and I countered...with "Whoa, wait a minute...let's take a closer look at this".  That's a discussion, point counter point, not the kind of stuff in your reply, which is off the subject, and all "fired up".

So if you want to counter my arguements of why the Li battery is not worth the money...go for it.  Present the facts. Please tell me again what  the Shorai battery does that my OEM battery does not..

The issue here really is that your "point-counterpoint" argument is that its based on a totally personal point of view.  In terms of raw engineering, this battery is superior.  No question about it.


So really your issues are totally personal and have nothing to do with whether or not the job gets down in the end.  We all know both batteries will start, albeit one with more cranking amps than the other.  Thats not the issue. 


This battery is superior.  Whether or not you see the value in it should not be relevant if we are just talking about the performance of either battery. 


Now if you'd like to start a thread on why you PERSONALLY don't like the battery, go ahead.  But is it really necessary in a thread that just talks about the ability of said battery? 

Quote from: twocool on January 24, 2012, 09:25:19 PM

Quote from: NickyNumbers on January 24, 2012, 08:28:14 PM

Quote from: twocool on January 24, 2012, 05:27:15 PM

If I was rich and didn't care about money would I buy one?  Maybe...

But being the cheap old bastard I am...no way!

Cookie

Bingo! you hit the nail on the head.


Its for people with some disposable income.  I know its not a big upgrade, but nevertheless it does perform better. 

Oh and also, when the starter is cranking, its pulling amps.  So this battery would be better than a normal stock one if it advertises more cold cranking amps than a regular one. 



Are you really still using a lead acid batteries?  You are showing your age, at least get a sealed acid battery.  Is it annoying refilling it and sometimes spilling it around?

My stock battery has never failed to start my bike on the first try...how can you top that with any battery?

Sla does have advantage over not sealed..and costs about the same...

Explain again what I would get for the extra $110 that I don't get now and can't live without...

With age comes wisdom...Every kid wants to be the first one on the block to have the next mew thing....$300 sneakers come to mind too..

Cookie

Huh?  You basically listed point for point what you don't like about it.  You never gave any type of scientific data or any evidence.

Your only argument is "Mine works fine".   Great, good for you.   Some of us would rather spend extra to get that little bit of extra goodness. 



And you don't have wisdom.  Wisdom wouldn't allow you do look down on other people for making a personal choice.  Wisdom is what you get from experience and from understanding, not from standing on top of a high horse casting dispersion's on those that you only have an assumption as to what their motives are.


A person with wisdom who didn't agree would say "to each their own". 

Quote from: adidasguy on January 24, 2012, 10:14:17 PM
I've been watching this thread evolve with amusement.

Dear ExtremelyCold: You're working very hard in a campaign to convince us we are all stupid for wanting a better battery. It seems to be an obsession. I'm not sure what the point is.

I used regular batteries. I switched to Shorai and know they are better after using them. I feel the extra expense is worth it. I worked on Trey for 2 weeks. Lots of trying to start him up. Never once did the Shorai fail me. Never did I put it on a charger.

I guess I am stupid in your opinion because I like LSL and ASV levers. Why spend $100 for a lever wien a cheap Chinese $9 set will work? I find the better levers work better, feel better and fit better (without having to file them to get a proper fit).

I am also stupid in your opinion for spending money for LED indicator lamps when plain old 10 cent lamps will work just as well. I find the LEDs are brighter and have a purer color which I like.

I can go on and on and on on all the things we do because we like it and are willing to spend a little more for it.

It all comes down to what you prefer and what you want to spend. It is OK if you are happy with Hong Kong cheap levers, incandescent lamps, WallyMart batteries and old used tires - because these are all "inexpensive and work just as well". We accept your decisions. We are not proselytizing to get you to change, as you are to us.

You've said enough about your hatred of LeFe batteries. Fine. We know you hate them.

Now leave it be and let those of us who do find them better get back to a meaningful discussion regarding our experiences and questions about LiFe batteries. Some of us like something a little better and are willing to spend the extra for it. That's our prerogative.

Don't bother, its like trying to explain to someone who thinks a Casio watch is just as good as a Jacques Lecoultre because they both tell time.

Quote from: Dizzledan on January 25, 2012, 09:15:04 AM
Not actually having the battery installed yet (ships today), I can't tell you how much better it is than a $45 lead acid, but I can tell you why I bought it.
1. Size- being a smaller battery (1#) it can be mounted in a custom location, giving me room under the seat to fab up an actual storage compartment.
2. Materials- having no acids/liquids, there is nothing to leak out, no drain hose to attach, and no more battery acid scarring up my frame/exhaust (yes it does happen)
3. Ease of use- the Shorai has an expected life of 8-10 years, and has built in technology to make sure that it gives the best performance it can.
4. Cranking amps- 14A is 5 more than the standard GS batt i believe, and this is essential in my situation. I have an '89, and countless times I've had to drag out the jumper cables and hook up to my car when the bike needs to crank and crank while I diagnose problems.
5. Deep cycle abilities- the Shorai has built in technology to be able to crank and crank until its down to 15% of its charge, without losing steam. When you charge it back up, there is no sulfation like in a lead acid battery, and it can charge back up to 100% more times without depleting the batteries life.
6. Customization- More amps, means more farkle can be put on, without having to modify the charging system.

Given these reasons, you could say that you don't have any similar problems which is fine; everyone, and everyone's bike, are different in their own ways. I won't bash you for questioning others' idea of a good purchase, because you're helping keep people in check. Some people may have a perfectly running bike and be able to start on the first press, and not need any of the features listed above, which is great. For the rest of us, this battery poses a good addition to our riding experience.  I felt it was a much needed addition to my bikes well being, and I can justify the cost until the cows come home.

Thanks...that's a nice discussion....you made 6 points of why you're willing to pay 3x to 4x more money....

So to counter point:

#1) where do you have in mind to mount the battery?  B) what are you going to put in the existing  batery box?  Call me crazy, but I put my battery in the battery box...I put my other crap in a bag and bungee it to the seat.  For $150 I could buy a beautiful rear trunk or set of panniers...

2) Valid points...I haven't had these problems...but I could see this as a problem.  My solution however is a $50 SLA replacement when the time comes rather than $150.....

3)  8 to  10 years is pretty good....but we need to wait 8 to 10 years to find out if they last this long....But figuring my Lead batteries will last 3 to 4 years....$150 will take me 9 to 12 years from now....but  probably will have a different bike by then....


4) cranking amps...actually you listed the amp hours.......14 for the Shorai compared to 11 for the OEM....but the "cold cranking amps" on the Shorai are way up there like 200 and something...a lot more than the OEM.   This is the only area where I believe the Shorai offers any real advantage.  But I still have to argue that for me anyway, I've never has a cranking issue, over two motorcycles, and one scooter...I mean, I guess more is better....but if the bike starts, it starts......more cranking amps and, well, it starts....worth $150?


5) deep cycle.....a motorcycle is not a deep cycle application...electric bikes, wheel chairs, and model airplanes are...this is why Li batteries are great for those applications....deep cycle on motorcycle is only if your bike is messed up and won't start, or you leave the lights on..but yu can't blame the battery for that..

6) More amps...well there not really that much more amps..but if you're gonna run stereos, and heated gloves and heated underwear and spot lights and crap like that, you probably need to get more amps out of the charging system...get a bigger alternator...not the battery...

But hey, I can see where you're coming from and why you made your decision.  I don't agree, but I respect your decision, and I'm sure you are happy with it. 

And you got your point across without being nasty, emotional, or name calling!   

Cookie

I always enjoy these battery/exhaust/tire/headlight/sprocket/etc arguments.  Unfortunately, too many times I've been caught up in threads pronouncing something new/different as being "the best thing ever!!!!!" and finding they rarely live up to the hype.

I'll give the lithium technology batteries a few more years to mature then jump on the bandwagon. Cheaper that way.

Anyone have an opinion on oil???









Sorry, had to do it   

-Jessie

Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 25, 2012, 06:41:45 PM
Anyone have an opinion on oil???

I was going to switch to synthetic but my bike isn't picky.

Oh Cookie, I asked for opinions and I got it. I think what may have ignited a fuse here could possibly be the "Interested in a bridge for sale?" comment. I have a feeling it was taken the wrong way. I appreciate all the points of view here... as I'm trying to decide on my next battery purchase. But you don't have to convince me once and for all. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Truthfully, you did make me think about it... is the cost really worth it? Probably not. But in my humble opinion, if someone wants to farkle out on their bike, it's ok. It's a hobby. It's a way of life. It's a way to get around. It's a way to share something we have in common. Even though there are some differences in opinion.

Quote from: Erika on January 25, 2012, 10:26:57 PM
Oh Cookie, I asked for opinions and I got it. I think what may have ignited a fuse here could possibly be the "Interested in a bridge for sale?" comment. I have a feeling it was taken the wrong way. I appreciate all the points of view here... as I'm trying to decide on my next battery purchase. But you don't have to convince me once and for all. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Truthfully, you did make me think about it... is the cost really worth it? Probably not. But in my humble opinion, if someone wants to farkle out on their bike, it's ok. It's a hobby. It's a way of life. It's a way to get around. It's a way to share something we have in common. Even though there are some differences in opinion.

Erika,

What? You're not even ready to buy a battery!!  And you got us all worked up! 

Well, if and when you decide, let us know what and why....

I forgot that most people these days are really thin skinned and don't take a joke well...the crack about the bridge for sale was a quick example of "buyer beware"...

In America, marketing is a big deal...one of the modern principles is to CREATE a  market where no market actually exists.   Pet rock, Tickle elmo, Chia pet, are all good examples of how this is easily done.  Brand loyalty is another weird phenonon...Great for the economy, I guess, but don't we all have closets full of crap we wish we really didn't waste money on? 

Anyway, for what it's worth, IMHO, I recommend you go for the Shorai battery, AND  the Jacques Lecoultre watch.  Why not?  It's only money, Life is short, enjoy! 

Cookie

Quote from: twocool on January 26, 2012, 05:55:15 AM
AND  the Jacques Lecoultre watch.  Why not?  It's only money, Life is short, enjoy! 

Cookie

have you seen the movement on their gyro?  Holllllyyyyyyyyy ......... its incredible.  check out the youtube link below! 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/VwoNmy1oWAI

That's really cool! Is it waterproof? ha.

Quote from: Erika on January 26, 2012, 08:21:06 PM
That's really cool! Is it waterproof? ha.

i'd be afraid to even perspire near it, probably depreciates the value rofl