I'm assuming you removed the camshafts which are the 2 pieces the cam chain spin which push on the valve shims.  The valve buckets should always spin when the cams are removed.  What you are checking for when spinning the buckets with the cams installed is if there is ANY clearance even if your smallest feeler gauge won't fit in the gap.  If the cams are oriented correctly for a valve check and the bucket does not spin at all it means there is no clearance between the cam and the shim.  That means the valve is not being allowed to close which means it can be damaged (burned).  The fact your buckets move with the cam removed doesn't tell you anything.  Either way the shim needed to be replaced so go ahead and do that.  You will have to take an educated guess on what size shim you need since you couldn't measure the clearance.  What size shim was in it?  Now that you removed the cams you will have to re-time the engine when you put it back together.  Take your time and make sure you get that step right or you can bend/break a valve if you get it wrong.  Spin the engine a couple of times by hand to make sure the timing is dead on.  Then you will still have to do a compression test when you are done to see if your valve that had no clearance is working correctly.  And since you removed the camshafts you should add a new cam chain tensioner gasket to your list of parts.

-Jessie

Edit:  And be careful when re-installing the cam caps, they can crack if they are not tightened evenly.

Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 26, 2012, 04:42:17 PM
I'm assuming you removed the camshafts which are the 2 pieces the cam chain spin which push on the valve shims.  The valve buckets should always spin when the cams are removed.  What you are checking for when spinning the buckets with the cams installed is if there is ANY clearance even if your smallest feeler gauge won't fit in the gap.  If the cams are oriented correctly for a valve check and the bucket does not spin at all it means there is no clearance between the cam and the shim.  That means the valve is not being allowed to close which means it can be damaged (burned).  The fact your buckets move with the cam removed doesn't tell you anything.  Either way the shim needed to be replaced so go ahead and do that.  You will have to take an educated guess on what size shim you need since you couldn't measure the clearance.  What size shim was in it?  Now that you removed the cams you will have to re-time the engine when you put it back together.  Take your time and make sure you get that step right or you can bend/break a valve if you get it wrong.  Spin the engine a couple of times by hand to make sure the timing is dead on.  Then you will still have to do a compression test when you are done to see if your valve that had no clearance is working correctly.  And since you removed the camshafts you should add a new cam chain tensioner gasket to your list of parts.

-Jessie

Edit:  And be careful when re-installing the cam caps, they can crack if they are not tightened evenly.

should I replace all the shims? or just the problem one?    chain tensioner gasket, check. So need a head gasket, chain tensioner gasket, should I be looking at any other ones? Also how do you get the shims out after pulling the bowls out? Lol oops.. I think my engine was mistimed in the first place, was watching your video's on youtube the 1/4 series, and the arrow on the sprocket, to the 18 spaces on the chain[something like that will look over when re-doing], It wasn't right.. Could this have caused a problem in the first place? Can you tell if a valve is broken/burnt with the shim bowl things are out? I pulled them out by accident trying to get the shims out, guess it doesn't work that way... we learn, also, there is blue stuff in my engine? lol? Factory thing? its not near anything important, that might me rubbing or anything, its just there. was curious what it was.

Did you measure the valve clearances with a feeler gauge before you disassembled the engine??  That is how you determine if shims need to be replaced.  If not, you will have to re-assemble the engine and get those measurements.  .03mm-.08mm is the acceptable gap but it is always better to run towards the .08mm side since the gap decreases with engine wear.  If you have a gap that is less than your smallest feeler gauge you will have to make an educated guess on what size shim you need.  It may take 2 or 3 tries to find the correct size which is why I prefer the valve shim tool to removing the camshafts.  It is a lot  easier to use the valve shim tool 3 times than to pull the cams 3 times.  There is a notch cut out of the buckets where a small screwdriver or pick can be used to pop the shim out.  Make sure to align that notch so you will be able to access it before pressing the valve down with a valve shim tool.  There is no need to remove the buckets no matter what method you are using.

So let's say that on one of your valves a .02mm feeler gauge is the biggest that will fit in the gap.  That valve clearance is below our .03mm lowest spec.  So we remove the valve shim and measure it.  Let's say it is a 2.70.  Our goal is to get a .08mm gap.  So .08mm goal minus our .02mm gap is .06mm.  We want to increase our gap .06mm.  2.70mm current shim minus our desired .06mm gap increase is 2.64mm.  Suzuki shims come in .05 increments so 2.65mm is the shim we would use which should give us a .07mm clearance.  Once the new shims are installed and we are sure everything is in time we would rotate the engine by hand a few times and re-check our measurements.  Oil in the valve shim buckets can give false readings when the new shims are first installed, rotating the engine should squeeze it out.

You can't tell much by looking at the top side of the valves under the bucket unless the stems are actually broken.  A compression test is the best way of gauging how the valves are doing without removing the cylinder head.  If the engine was mis-timed it can bend/break valves, look at Tombstones' posts about his engine woes.  I doubt yours was mis-timed if you were able to ride it.  Is the blue stuff rubbery?  If so, it is probably liquid gasket (commonly called RTV) but it is hard to say for sure without seeing a picture.  If it is RTV you want to get it all out of there so it doesn't clog an oil passage.

-Jessie

Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 27, 2012, 06:55:56 AM
Did you measure the valve clearances with a feeler gauge before you disassembled the engine??  That is how you determine if shims need to be replaced.  If not, you will have to re-assemble the engine and get those measurements.  .03mm-.08mm is the acceptable gap but it is always better to run towards the .08mm side since the gap decreases with engine wear.  If you have a gap that is less than your smallest feeler gauge you will have to make an educated guess on what size shim you need.  It may take 2 or 3 tries to find the correct size which is why I prefer the valve shim tool to removing the camshafts.  It is a lot  easier to use the valve shim tool 3 times than to pull the cams 3 times.  There is a notch cut out of the buckets where a small screwdriver or pick can be used to pop the shim out.  Make sure to align that notch so you will be able to access it before pressing the valve down with a valve shim tool.  There is no need to remove the buckets no matter what method you are using.

So let's say that on one of your valves a .02mm feeler gauge is the biggest that will fit in the gap.  That valve clearance is below our .03mm lowest spec.  So we remove the valve shim and measure it.  Let's say it is a 2.70.  Our goal is to get a .08mm gap.  So .08mm goal minus our .02mm gap is .06mm.  We want to increase our gap .06mm.  2.70mm current shim minus our desired .06mm gap increase is 2.64mm.  Suzuki shims come in .05 increments so 2.65mm is the shim we would use which should give us a .07mm clearance.  Once the new shims are installed and we are sure everything is in time we would rotate the engine by hand a few times and re-check our measurements.  Oil in the valve shim buckets can give false readings when the new shims are first installed, rotating the engine should squeeze it out.

[cut some]

-Jessie

As far as I remember you said if the bucket doesn't move at all it has no clearance? That one didn't move. with the cams in that is. so does that mean I need a bigger shim? I'm a bit confused.

I did a test, the right side, switched the shim out with the left side. [problem side] and the bucket moved once more with the cam in. still to small an its a 2.70 or something like that? something 70 lol. the original one was 2.75 or something 75. so I need to go to a Suzuki shop that's no were near me. :0 lol

Curious, how does this happen? Lol like how do the shims become to big/small from the valve.

As the valves open and close they slowly wear (eat away) their seat in the head which is why the valve clearance decreases.  Eventually it wears the head to the point wear there are no smaller shims available.  At that point the head needs to be replaced.

-Jessie

Well the thickness of the shim does not change....shims are hard and don't really wear down much if at all.  What happens is the valve wears into the heads...so the valves go deeper and deeper into the head...making the valve stem protrude more out of the top...thus making the clearance less and less over time...

When the cam is in the correct position for the valve to be fully closed (as shown in the service manual) there shuold be a clearance between the shim and the cam...

If there is no clearance, it means the valve is not fully closed and is pushing up on the bucket, which is pushing up on the shim which is in contact with the cam...this means the bucket will not rotate, because there is pressure on it.  This also means there is 0 clearance, which is very bad.

In this case you need to go to a thinner shim.

Once you get a thin enough shim in there, so that the bucket will rotate, you can then insert feeler guage to actaully measure the gap.. The gap needs to be between .03mm and.08 mm.  If the gap is not within this spec, you need to change to another thickness shim, until the gap is within spec.

It is conventional wisdom to always make the exhaust clearance to the larger gap, (like    .06, .07, .08mm) never on the tight side.  So many would use a spec of .07 to .12 mm for the exhaust. 

Remember the shims only  come in .05 mm increments.....

So say my exhaust measured .03mm   even thought that is in spec, its to the low side...I would go to the next shim size smaller and get a gap of .08mm

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so I would need a 2.65 shim? for my problem side, and keep the other side, as it is was fine. Finally! I know what I need! Lol! cause with the swapped its 70, and has about a .02-.03 space. Measured with a piece of note book paper, was told its about .03 in thickness. and it kind slid into it but not quite. so I'm gonna guess its a .02 clearance, so If I drop the shim to 2.65 it would give me a an even 7. Woo-hoo! Newb powers GO!

You still need a feeler gauge to know for sure but your logic seems sound   

-Jessie

Gonna buy them tomorrow! just have to find a pair!! cause I still need to check all of them, not just the problem one. Don't want no clanking! also Baltimore, how do you do the timing stuff, with the RT and LT stuff.. lol Got a video on that? I watched over your videos with the parts 1-4 and it doesn't really go over that, and well.. I took out my cams as you might know. and need to re-time or what ever it is, also to do this, do I need to take out my engine or can I just spin the back tire to get it in the right place?

You have to take off the round right side cover with a Suzuki emblem that is held on by three 7mm bolts.  Under it is the rotor with the timing marks.  Turn it clockwise with a 19mm until the R/T mark lines up with the left pickup  (highlighted in red on the photo below).

-Jessie

Quote from: BaltimoreGS on January 28, 2012, 09:34:30 PM
You have to take off the round right side cover with a Suzuki emblem that is held on by three 7mm bolts.  Under it is the rotor with the timing marks.  Turn it clockwise with a 19mm until the R/T mark lines up with the left pickup  (highlighted in red on the photo below).

-Jessie

But I haz the F model doesn't look like this..

 

Quote from: gsJack on January 28, 2012, 10:21:31 PM

Oh what now...?

Go back to the first page of this very thread and look at Jacks posts and I think you'll get it...   

-Jessie

Quote from: J_Walker on January 28, 2012, 09:13:21 PM
also Baltimore, how do you do the timing stuff, with the RT and LT stuff.. lol Got a video on that? I watched over your videos with the parts 1-4 and it doesn't really go over that, and well.. I took out my cams as you might know. and need to re-time or what ever it is, also to do this, do I need to take out my engine or can I just spin the back tire to get it in the right place?

The videos DO go over timing.  Check out part 4 again.

Quote from: Adfalchius on January 29, 2012, 09:50:42 AM

Quote from: J_Walker on January 28, 2012, 09:13:21 PM
also Baltimore, how do you do the timing stuff, with the RT and LT stuff.. lol Got a video on that? I watched over your videos with the parts 1-4 and it doesn't really go over that, and well.. I took out my cams as you might know. and need to re-time or what ever it is, also to do this, do I need to take out my engine or can I just spin the back tire to get it in the right place?

The videos DO go over timing.  Check out part 4 again.

I know but in the video it doesn't show the engine on the bike, I can only get the timing to go to LT's line not RT's first line.. but the fun part is my bike's engine is still IN my bike.. so I don't know if that makes a difference.

Not sure what you mean it won't go to the R/T mark, you just turn the rotor with a 19mm until the marks line up like the picture to the right.  Shouldn't matter whether the engine is installed in the bike.  Do you have it in neutral? 

-Jessie

Yeah its in netural, it won't spin it spins about 10% back and forth.. won't go any further. don't wanna strip the threads on the bolt head.. or f$%k my engine up trying to turn it.. Problem?

Are your spark plugs removed? 

-Jessie

You have to hold the cam chain up in the air so it doesn't bind.

-Jessie