If a valve is seized does it not move at all? like If I were to hand crank the engine. and when the front left cam is pushing down on the shim/bucket the valve should be going down? am I right? What if it don't move? does that mean its seized I'm guessing? or a rod is already bent and it has no "Resistance to come back up?" I'm just trying to learn the way of the engine

also would there be a way for "me" to get the valve unstuck without cracking open the whole thing? Just to "try" to see if it works first, as I don't wanna take apart the engine.. Again.. for the 3rd time.. Well top end at lease! what could I use to "try" to get it unstuck? I don't wanna stick oils/lubes places it shouldn't go..

First thing and most importantly...

DO NOT CRANK THE ENGINE EXCEPT BY HAND!!!!!! (with a wrench under the right side cover)

if you have a stuck valve that is.

I was dumb and  cranked the engine normaly, ending up snapping the valve, ruining the piston and the entire head.
and this was done to a perfectly Good engine because of my lack of knowledge and stupidity.....
I dont think I'll ever stop kickin myself in the @$$ for that one!

I would search around on here.
but if its simply stuck, I would try heating it up first and crank it without a ton of force by hand.
as it might just be a stuck bucket like I had. (what the shim sits on/in)

Just hope you didnt hit that start button, especially multiple times like I did thinking it was electrical lol

(edit)
and take off your exhaust if it isnt yet and look down the left exhaust port if thats the one stuck.
im no expert, but if the bucket is Up and the valve is Closed, then im pretty sure you just have it stuck.
in that case, I would assume its the bucket possibly causing it and heat up around it to see if it frees up.

if the bucket is Up and the valve is Open at all, its possibly a bent valve. (my new head had at least one bent intake valve and wasnt closing all the way)

best way to check if its fully closed.
shine a flashlight down the spark plug hole on that side and look down the exhaust port from the front of the bike.
if its supposed to be closed, u should Not see any of the light.

I did on my intake, thats how I knew they were not closing and had to pull them out.

Thanks tombstone, see no matter how I rotate the engine - by hand of course - I did try to start it once.. but that doesn't matter cause its been start/ran/abused to shaZam!. soo.. im sure its already screwed up before I even knew about it. Its actually stuck.. down when looking at it. AKA closed. if I rotate the engine, it does not move at all.. the shim bucket moves.. but not the valve itself. I'm hoping how ever it got stuck, It got stuck down, and never came back up. Meaning it basically didn't do any damage.. but that's my hopes..

PS: I don't know about heating up of the bucket.. as my engine over heated pretty badly that last go around when the bike actually ran, so I'm pretty sure it would of free'd up then.. just my 2 cents tho. I could be wrong. I'll see what I could do.. I really dread taking the WHOLE engine apart. srsly 4th time? REALLY?

HaHaHa welcome to my world!

I think I can take out, apart, and put back together the entire top end of the engine blindfolded by now.

and if its that obvious to be the valve itself thats stuck.
then it looks like you do have to take the head off again.

which is easy except for those dang copper washers!

dunno, if the valve itself is stuck and not the bucket, all I can come up with is its bent.
but my knowledge is limited to my own problems i've had tho.

Quote from: Tombstones81 on February 07, 2012, 11:22:44 AM
HaHaHa welcome to my world!

I think I can take out, apart, and put back together the entire top end of the engine blindfolded by now.

and if its that obvious to be the valve itself thats stuck.
then it looks like you do have to take the head off again.

which is easy except for those dang copper washers!

dunno, if the valve itself is stuck and not the bucket, all I can come up with is its bent.
but my knowledge is limited to my own problems i've had tho.

yeah wtf is with those copper washers, I was just having a have at them right now, and rage quit and went inside.. God fukin shet. I put all my weight into those suckers and wouldn't move 1 bit!

EDIT: remind me anyone, I dropped one of the spacers down into my engine from the cams.. Don't let me forget ^_^

Edit2: I also might be taking the whole engine apart for the hell of it at this freakin point..

OMFG I STRIPPED THE SOCKET WRENCHES BARING ON THOSE FREAKIN BOLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ASDHSADJASDBASHASDB RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Easy there killer!

and im getting Quite the case of Dejavu! hahaha (not laughing at your misfortune)
I dropped one of those suckers down the middle too.
So dropping the oil pan is another must for you too.
also a new oil pan gasket.

I was cocky for awhile and not putting a cloth in the middle of the engine, until I did that hahahaha

Do yourself a favor tho, dont put the copper washers back on until the motor is going to be reassembled in proper working condition.
I left mine out the last time I put the upper part back together.
as all I was seeing was if the bike would start finally.
Still need to replace the gaskets so putting them in was pointless.
If I was going to run the engine longer then say a mere 2 mins, I would have put them back in.

and if they are giving you trouble.
take a flathead screwdriver, place it right on the edge of the washer and just lightly tap the screwdriver with a hammer.
not downward, but at an angle to make the washer move in a loosening motion.
dont ding the crap out of them
and once it starts to move, u can usually turn it by hand.
if not, I used the inside of my needle nose pliers (the grooves) to move the washer to loosen them up more.

but most of all.
and this is coming from experience....

Relax before you go at it and take a breather when ur PO'd. haha

I've done enough damage of my own that way haha

Quote from: Tombstones81 on February 07, 2012, 12:02:40 PM
Easy there killer!

and im getting Quite the case of Dejavu! hahaha (not laughing at your misfortune)
I dropped one of those suckers down the middle too.
So dropping the oil pan is another must for you too.
also a new oil pan gasket.

So If/when I drop the oil pan the little thing will fall out with it? I don't know where it went all I know is it went down.. lol I had a cloth in it, but I was taking out the cams, and had to move the paper towel. so it fell.. Fuuu lol

thats what mine did.
it fell down the middle, I dropped the oil pan weeks later and there it was.

i will agree with tomb... it will most likely be in the oil pan. before you pull oil pan, use a really bright flash light to see if you can see it. (hope you drained your oil before all this) if you can see it go to local autozone or advance auto store and purchase and extendable magnet. (trust me, saves alot of headaches) plus side to the magnet is our cases are aluminum... magnet wont stick and cause issues. the crank on the other hand...

as for the valve, if it is stuck "down" your in trouble. dont try and force anything.  cam lobe straight up, valve closed = up  valve open = down

did you have the buckets and valves out before? so to verify when you turn the engine over the bucket pushes down but the valve doesnt?

Quote from: oz353 on February 08, 2012, 08:20:21 PM
i will agree with tomb... it will most likely be in the oil pan. before you pull oil pan, use a really bright flash light to see if you can see it. (hope you drained your oil before all this) if you can see it go to local autozone or advance auto store and purchase and extendable magnet. (trust me, saves alot of headaches) plus side to the magnet is our cases are aluminum... magnet wont stick and cause issues. the crank on the other hand...

as for the valve, if it is stuck "down" your in trouble. dont try and force anything.  cam lobe straight up, valve closed = up  valve open = down

did you have the buckets and valves out before? so to verify when you turn the engine over the bucket pushes down but the valve doesnt?

I'm kinda confused still.. when the cam lobe is facing down, that should mean the valve is closed right? And when its up, its open? IE: letting the gases out.

Basically when the cam lobe is facing DOWN. the valve is "closed." when its facing UP. its still closed, It doesn't move..
I read by researching the basics of engines and valves and what not's. that I could possibly have something called a "valve recession" tho I also did read this only happens on older engines like 70's and earlier or something like that. Cause the leaded fuel added some sort of lube for the softer valves and what not's.

Quote from: J_Walker on February 08, 2012, 09:43:23 PM

Quote from: oz353 on February 08, 2012, 08:20:21 PM
i will agree with tomb... it will most likely be in the oil pan. before you pull oil pan, use a really bright flash light to see if you can see it. (hope you drained your oil before all this) if you can see it go to local autozone or advance auto store and purchase and extendable magnet. (trust me, saves alot of headaches) plus side to the magnet is our cases are aluminum... magnet wont stick and cause issues. the crank on the other hand...

as for the valve, if it is stuck "down" your in trouble. dont try and force anything.  cam lobe straight up, valve closed = up  valve open = down

did you have the buckets and valves out before? so to verify when you turn the engine over the bucket pushes down but the valve doesnt?

I'm kinda confused still.. when the cam lobe is facing down, that should mean the valve is closed right? And when its up, its open? IE: letting the gases out.

Basically when the cam lobe is facing DOWN. the valve is "closed." when its facing UP. its still closed, It doesn't move..
I read by researching the basics of engines and valves and what not's. that I could possibly have something called a "valve recession" tho I also did read this only happens on older engines like 70's and earlier or something like that. Cause the leaded fuel added some sort of lube for the softer valves and what not's.

When the cam lobe is down and pushing the bucket and valve down the valve is open. Cam lobe facing up there would be clearance between the low point of the cam and the valve would be closed. If the valve is stuck open then with the piston at top of it's stroke there will probably interference between the open valve and the top of the piston. NOT a good thing!

The pointy part of the cam pushes the valve open, the round part of the cam should let the valve close.  There has to be an adequate space between the round part of the cam and the shim to allow the valve to fully close; "valve clearance."  That is what we are checking for with the feeler gauges.  Fuel had lead it in it up until the early 70's.  That lead acted as a lubricant for the internal parts of the engine.  Once the lead was removed there wasn't adequate lubricant for the old valve train components and the valves ate into their seat in the cylinder head (valve recession).  Manufactures changed the make up of the heads to have hardened valve seats to eliminate that problem.  All modern engines have hardened valve seats so that is no longer a concern.  What can happen though is if there is not adequate valve clearance and a valve is held open, the combustion process escapes the combustion chamber and can burn the valve and ruin the valve seat (cylinder head).  Hope that all makes sense 

-Jessie

Edit: Early morning spelling errors corrected.

Quote from: BaltimoreGS on February 09, 2012, 05:01:31 AM
The pointy part of the cam pushes the valve open, the round part of the cam should let the valve close.  There has to be an adequate space between the round part of the cam and the shim to allow the valve t fully close; "valve clearance."  That is what we are checking for with the feeler gauges.  Fuel had lead it in it up until the early 70's.  That lead acted as a lubricant for the internal parts of the engine.  Once the lead was removed there wasn't adequate lubricant for the old valve train components and the valves ate into their seat in the cylinder head (valve recession).  Manufactures changed the make up of the heads to have hardened valve seats to eliminate that problem.  All modern engines have hardened valve seats so that is no longer a concern.  What can happen though is if there is not adequate valve clearance and a valve is held open, the combustion process escapes the combustion chamber and can burn the valve and ruin the valve seat (cylinder head).  Hope that all makes sense 

-Jessie

Wow, nice explanation. +1

so basically what I said was backwards, when the lobe is facing up.. its closed, when its facing down, its open. so my derp-@ss has been giving wrong info. so basically my thing is stuck "open" then. sorry jessie ^)^ that means I got a burnt valve? but what is weird, is when I did the light test, no light was coming threw, that's what was making me say it was "Closed" lol