Hey everyone,

Here's a new one for my bike. I left my bike sitting in my garage for a week. No big deal, figured I'd start it up right away and get going. Well, I get down the hill and realize my bike is dead. Initially I get a

*crank crank crank*

then

*crank...crank*


*crkkkkkankkkk...* and then nothing more.


No big deal, I thought to myself, not enough juice to crank the engine. I bump start the bike and get on my way. I stop at the gas station to fill up. After filling up I use the starter button to start the bike and it cranks like a champ and starts right up. "Good, the charger circuit is working and I should be completely charged by the time I get to work" I thought to myself.

Fast forward about 5 hours. As I go to start my bike in my employer's parking lot I note that it no longer cranks. It's just dead. "That's weird" I thought to myself and bump started it again. I did this until I got home to look at it ~6 hours later.



Finally home I topped off my battery and placed it on the charger overnight. The next morning my bike won't start again. Still no cranking. Just silence. Bump starting it works but I decided I'm not going to risk damaging my bike. I'll look at it when I get home.


Second day, I look at it when I get home I've noted:

- The battery is probably fine. The headlights and everything else work.
- The fuse is fine.
- The bike will not start. Pressing the starter button results in complete silence with the front headlight dimming like usual.


What I haven't done:

- Shorted the solenoid in order to make sure the motor is fine.
- Used a multimeter to get an accurate reading on the battery.
- Used a ohmeter to get an accurate reading on the solenoid.
- Bypassed the clutch safety switch (don't know how) in order to see if the switch is the problem.
- Bypassed the sidestand safety switch (don't know how) in order to see if the switch is the problem.


I have to buy a multimeter and ohmeter this weekend (or borrow one).


What I'm thinking is that

1.) The starter solenoid is shot. Mostly indicated by the lack of clicking when I press the starter button.
2.) There's a short somewhere else in the electrical system. I wouldn't even know where to start.



Does anyone have any suggestions/ideas? Thank you!

First thought is bad battery. Volt meter can tell you that. The first symptoms you list indicate bad battery.

A short will probably blow the fuse. Bad battery will prevent starter from clicking. Bad battery will cause repeated clicking of starter relay, too.

A battery can have enough juice to turn on the headlight. The starter motor takes LOTS of power. Bad battery may not have enough power to run the starter motor.

What kind of battery and how old is it?

Be sure in neutral OR side stand is up. If not in neutral and side stand down bike will not run. (Safety interlock so you don't take off and turn left - only to hit the side stand and go down.)

Clutch switch is just a switch. Nothing special. Pull off connectors and short them together with a paperclip. Doubt it is that.

If you charged the battery and won't start, I still suspect bad battery. After you got it running, it stared because the battery was freshly charged. It seems to not hold a charge. Maybe due to a bad cell in the battery.

The other possibility is you turn off the bike and put in park. That leaves on the tail light and running light - slowly draining the battery.
Though, a week sitting in park it would be totally dead. I'm still guessing a bad battery. Your charging system seems to be working.

To check side stand switch:
1. Bike on center stand (so you can swing the side stand)
2. Bike IN GEAR - not in neutral.
3. Turn on bike
4. As the side stand goes all the way UP, you will hear a small relay click.
5. Move side stand up and down (just the top most part) and you will hear that relay open and close.
Taking seat off may help hear it as it is under the seat on the right side.

Battery needs load testing.

+1 on bad battery.

Thanks guys, I'll see if I can borrow my friend's battery Thursday and a multimeter to test mine. The battery is the stock Yuasa battery. Had it for 4000+ miles without a problem. It sure did seem weird when it died. What voltages should I be looking for across the battery terminals to determine if it's bad?

Of course I forgot to mention I did test it in neutral on the center stand with the sidestand up. I'm doubting it's the safety switches strictly because if you remember at the gas station, I was able to get it to crank after filling up. It was just me throwing ideas out.


I'll keep you updated. I hope it's the battery. The starter relay seems like a pain to replace because of the tight space it's in and I really don't want to have to diagnose a mystery electrical problem somewhere.

A multimeter wont tell you anything other than terminal voltage, what you need to know is how the battery is performing under full load conditions ie..... when the starter motor is trying to pull 70+ Amps out of it!! The only way to do this is to load it up. You must rule out the battery first when trying to diagnose charging/starting faults because if it is fubar`d it can mislead and create the impression of a fault elsewhere. Batteries are like bulbs, they DONT have an infinate lifespan and they will ALWAYS be the weakest link in the charging system.

Voltage at a battery can give an indication of bad. BAD if voltage is low. Meter also needed to see if system is charging correctly. You can get an idea of battery condition by watching the voltage when you press the starter. also difference in voltage with bike off and on. Just the headlight should not drop voltage much. Though it will SLOWLY go down due to the load of the headlight.

My OEM stock battery died after 18 months and 4k miles. It was a sudden death.

Went Shorai for all bikes now.

Some batteries just are no good. My OEM battery has 52,000km on it and shows no signs of weakening. Three years old this month.

The start switch needs a drop of solder on the contacts.
Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: sledge on April 04, 2012, 11:16:13 AM
A multimeter wont tell you anything other than terminal voltage, what you need to know is how the battery is performing under full load conditions ie..... when the starter motor is trying to pull 70+ Amps out of it!! The only way to do this is to load it up. You must rule out the battery first when trying to diagnose charging/starting faults because if it is fubar`d it can mislead and create the impression of a fault elsewhere. Batteries are like bulbs, they DONT have an infinate lifespan and they will ALWAYS be the weakest link in the charging system.

Turns out a shop down the street does load testing on batteries as well as charge testing and slew of other tests. I'll take it there first thing after work Thursday and see what they say.

Quote from: The Buddha on April 04, 2012, 12:31:53 PM
The start switch needs a drop of solder on the contacts.
Cool.
Buddha.

Why would this be? It seems the start switch is working correctly since I was able to get it to start at the gas station without problems. Regardless, I'll crack open the switch housing on the handlebar and inspect the solder just in case.

Careful with the switch: your throttle cables may get messed up. The switch does clean itself as it wipes a little. Unless the wires are broken, I'd wait on that. The "break" contact works to turn off the headlight. You did have it start and the cranking went down. That would be battery going dead.

You can check the switch before tearing into it. Use your volt meter and check the voltage at the starter relay as you press the button. Will go from zero to something (depending on the strength of your battery). It would be the yellow/green wire. The starter button goes through the clutch switch before getting to the starter relay. Remember to pull in the clutch. Remember to have the KILL switch in the ON position. Before that, the power goes through the side stand relay so side stand UP or bike in neutral.

Side stand down and not in neutral kills the bike. Lights are on, but nobody home.

Your volt meter is your best friend to check electrical issues before tearing into things. But let's not forget the wiring diagram!

So many of these starting problems and battery issues can easily be diagnosed with a $10 meter from Radio Schlock, Homor Despot or anywhere else. I don't know why people don't see a meter as an essential tool. I find electrical things so simple to diagnose compared to carbs or engine mechanics. Also, you don't get oil all over you!

So today I ended up testing a bunch of stuff.

We tested voltage across the terminals. It's strong. We tested all sorts of electrical connections and they're all fine. We also tried to jump it using a car but the car we used didn't give enough of a charge turned off to use so we backed off. Doing that with a car on is a great way to blow up a battery.

Took the battery to get it load tested, didn't feel like driving across town so I went back home. Every single car auto shop refuses to load test motorcycle batteries. Which leads me to the next point.

Jumping the solenoid worked. The bike started right up without any problems. I'm pretty sure this means that the solenoid is shot. If the battery wasn't giving enough current it wouldn't start even jumped like that. Triple checked my fuses and had someone else look at it in case I was crazy. The fuse is fine.


Am I on the right track? If so, I'll order a solenoid tomorrow.

Never heard if you tested the battery under load (when the starter is cranking) and what the results were.  Auto shops are equipped for car batteries...FAR more amps than motorcycle batteries.  Probably liability why they didn't check it.

Try with a known good working battery.  Easiest way.

Maybe I am missing something, but I didn't see any load or known good battery test results.

You're on the right track. 

You can load test it yourself, if the solenoid is working.  Put your volt meter on the battery terminals and observe the voltage while you engage the starter.  Voltage should drop to about 10 volts, maybe a little higher, then recover to 12V+ quickly.  If the solenoid is not working, you will not see much of a voltage drop.

Quote from: Paulcet on April 04, 2012, 08:31:32 PM
You're on the right track. 

You can load test it yourself, if the solenoid is working.  Put your volt meter on the battery terminals and observe the voltage while you engage the starter.  Voltage should drop to about 10 volts, maybe a little higher, then recover to 12V+ quickly.  If the solenoid is not working, you will not see much of a voltage drop.

The other way around is how it worked. We took the voltage off the terminals and when the starter was pressed the voltage shot up. To be expected though since the solenoid isn't working and the front light cuts when you press the starter.

We took a bunch of readings off the solenoid itself that indicated that there wasn't any current running through it either.


Can anyone link me a solenoid from a reputable source? I'd really appreciate it.

For a new OEM Solenoid, try Bikebandit: www.bikebandit.com and look at the parts fiche.
Also, e-bay has some Solenoids from part-out bikes.
Finally, post on the buy/sell/trade/need/want section of the forum that you need a solenoid.

Did you check the voltage going INTO the solenoid?
There is constant voltage in on the relay contact. That would be the red wires.
The yellow/green is what turns the relay on. When starter is pressed, do you see voltage there? If not - check your wiring. In particular, the clutch switch.
With a small jumper,yu can touch the yellow/green to the red wire. BE IN NEUTRAL AND ON CENTER STAND for safety. Bike should turn over.

With a meter and a wiring diagram, you can trace everything back from the starter solenoid. Clutch switch: one of the wires will have +12 on it when the starter button is pressed. The other wire goes to the starter solenoid.

Be sure kill switch is in the RUN position. Side stand UP and in neutral.

Do the test to see if you hear the click of the side stand relay. You can always short the side stand relay contacts if that is bad. It is good if you can push start the bike. remember - not in neutral and side stand down kills the bike. If bike can run, then it is OK and the kill switch is also working correctly.

We did end up checking resistance and voltage coming to and from the solenoid when the starter is pressed. We measured power on the starter motor end (black wire/bolt on the solenoid) and we also measured the power on the battery end (red wire/bolt). We came to the conclusion the starter button works,battery is fine, and there's no wiring problems based on that. The bike shouldn't of cranked at all if any of the switches were bad (it started fine at the gas station and cranked fine in the driveway up until the time it died if you look back at the first post). I was able to push start the bike successfully which rules out the kill switch. It should of died immediately if the kill switch was bad.

Since shorting the solenoid caused the bike to turn over immediately without hesitation we ruled the starter motor and battery to be okay. Everything seems to be going the way of the solenoid. Especially with the ability to jump the solenoid to start the bike but no audible click coming from the solenoid otherwise.

So you do see +12 at the input of the starter relay when the start button pressed?
Check the ground connection of the starter relay. If ground is broken or disconnected, you will see =12 show up there when start button is pressed (because there is no ground to suck up the +12).

Another way to check is the resistance between the ground connection of the starter relay and the frame or negative of the battery. Should be zero resistance (maybe 1 ohm but basically zero or good continuity).

If all that checks out then the coil of the starter relay is bad and you need to replace the starter relay.

If you were to remove the starter relay, it should click with a 9 volt battery at the relay coil connections.

If you need one, there are plenty of parts whores with them in their parts boxes or find one locally at a bike breaker. Also plenty on flea ghey.  I wouldn't spend retail for a new one.

Rare for the relay coil to go out. It would be more likely the relay contacts burn out. Anything could happen. Water or gas in the re could have corroded something inside.

I've never had the pleasure of a bad starter relay yet, but I read somewhere that any 12v starter relay will work. Including cheap ones for riding mowers.