so while i'm waiting for my tires to be shipped(not impressed with AMT so far) i decided i was going to do some maintenance  on my baby. clean the carbs and check the valve clearances specifically.  after i take the  the valve cover off and starts looking at it i find sadness.  i have 2 cracks on the area where the shafts meet the block. the engine seemed to be running fine before i checked the valves out.  my bike is an 01' with approx 34k miles on it.

my questions are...

1.  will they affect the driving?
2. will they get bigger?
3. is there supposed to be a bunch of oil just sitting up in the valve cover area?
4. am i screwed?
5. i'm sure i'm missing other questions but can't think of them right now

here are the pics

http://www.flickr.com/photos/60471940@N05/sets/72157635728447193/

this is really bumming me out as this is my first bike and want it to last as long as gsjack bikes have.

1.  will they affect the driving? --- WHEN  THEY SUDDENLY BREAK - YES
2. will they get bigger?--- YES
3. is there supposed to be a bunch of oil just sitting up in the valve cover area? --- YES THAT IS NORMAL
4. am i screwed? --- SORRY TO SAY, YES
5. i'm sure i'm missing other questions but can't think of them right now --- SEE #6

6. Do I need a new head? --- yes

Some have swapped journal caps. That is not advised as they are machined to the head (Also why they are labeled a-b-c and d)

How did you crack that ?
You sure its not a scratch or a casting mark ?
I really really doubt you cracked that.
Cool.
Buddha.

i'm assuming the PO never did the valve clearance checks when he was supposed to.  i can't even get a .038mm feeler in any of the valve areas.

Quote from: supersilas on September 21, 2013, 10:15:31 AM
so while i'm waiting for my tires to be shipped(not impressed with AMT so far) i decided i was going to do some maintenance  on my baby. clean the carbs and check the valve clearances specifically.  after i take the  the valve cover off and starts looking at it i find sadness.  i have 2 cracks on the area where the shafts meet the block. the engine seemed to be running fine before i checked the valves out.  my bike is an 01' with approx 34k miles on it.

my questions are...

1.  will they affect the driving?
2. will they get bigger?
3. is there supposed to be a bunch of oil just sitting up in the valve cover area?
4. am i screwed?
5. i'm sure i'm missing other questions but can't think of them right now

here are the pics

http://www.flickr.com/photos/60471940@N05/sets/72157635728447193/

this is really bumming me out as this is my first bike and want it to last as long as gsjack bikes have.

Unless you overtightened the bolts or something I seriously doubt you PERSONALLY cracked it. Even then you're more likely to have screwed up the threads or broke the valve cover before you cracked the journal cap. Consider this - GS500s are notorious for camshaft end play and that'd considered harmless. In order to crack that journal cap you'd need to have

a. Your cams bouncing around uncontrollably delivering tons of force to the caps

or

b. Accidentally overtightened the journal caps (at which point your cams are probably damaged too).

I was about to suggest just swapping journal caps but adidasguy knows alot more than I do about that. I'd heed his advice. But first make sure that it actually is a crack and not scoring, scratching, or casting like Buddha suggested. If need be get the opinion of a machinist who probably knows more about that kind of thing than you do.


Also, beautiful pictures.

Quote from: supersilas on September 21, 2013, 11:53:54 AM
i'm assuming the PO never did the valve clearance checks when he was supposed to.  i can't even get a .038mm feeler in any of the valve areas.

That will damage the valves not the journal caps. If this was a problem you'll see scoring on the camshaft lobes that contact the valve shim.



You didn't hear anything like a knock did you?

DR i don't believe i heard a knocking but i'm pretty new to motorcycling and have only been riding a couple of months.  apparently i bought a junker and didn't know it.  they are definetly cracks i can feel them with my finger nails
fml

how hard would it be to replace the head and will newer heads fit on it?

Quote from: supersilas on September 21, 2013, 12:21:15 PM
how hard would it be to replace the head and will newer heads fit on it?

You should try to just swap journal caps, and if the new ones fit and let it spin over ... take it easy a few 100 miles, then check and you should be OK.
In fact I'd advice you against swapping the head. A 38K miler isn't good candidate for a head swap, its a good one for a top end ... if you're doing top end, yes then swap heads.
You can measure the journal caps and get one pretty close. B and D for starters are close usually to other B and D's on other GS'es.

Someone with a junked motor should chime in here - I have a couple but all stashed away in storage and no way to get to it for 2 months..
Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: supersilas on September 21, 2013, 12:10:11 PM
DR i don't believe i heard a knocking but i'm pretty new to motorcycling and have only been riding a couple of months.  apparently i bought a junker and didn't know it.  they are definetly cracks i can feel them with my finger nails
fml

If you don't think you did, you didn't. You couldn't miss a "engine-is-about-to-blow" knock.

sigh   what are the things i would need to do if i replaced the head? would i be able to reuse the rest of the internals from the current head? 

Quote from: supersilas on September 21, 2013, 02:44:52 PM
sigh   what are the things i would need to do if i replaced the head? would i be able to reuse the rest of the internals from the current head?

There's a video on youtube of BaltimoreGS showing one being replaced.


From what I recall you have to

1. Remove the CCT to slacken the camchain
2. Remove the camchain (NOTE THE ORIENTATION MARKS ON THE CAMS). You can probably hang it from your frame with some zip ties or something.
3. Remove the cams
4. Undo all of the head bolts. There's a special order to tightening them/loosening them. Do not lose the washers.
5. Pull the head. Inspect the gasket while you're there. If it's even remotely bad you may as well replace it.


From there since you're just replacing the head as a unit it's drop in. Repeat the steps backwards. Do not lose track of washers/orings/spacers/anything. When putting the cam chain on do not screw up the orientation marks. Take your time, be thorough, double and triple check your work. If you screw up the timing your bike will destroy itself in short order. Then you'll be rebuilding the whole top-end (which, relatively speaking isn't much more work depending on what you destroyed). If you do destroy your bike in the process expect to have to ship off the head to a machine shop for valve reseating (~$75), you'll probably have to buy a new set of valves, you'll definitely be resurfacing the cylinders, chances are you'll be replacing the piston heads and piston rings, etc. It's more of a mess. So, don't screw up the timing.

I'm sure there's steps I missed but this should give you an idea. If you've never done it before it's probably going to take you a few weekends. I've never done it myself. Dig around on youtube for the top end GS500 rebuild how-to. Personally I'd suggest pulling the engine out entirely to give you room to work but there are a few people I've seen that have done it in-place. Your best friend will be a hayne's manual. My hayne's manual even has a make-shift engine rig design to hold your engine when you pull it out.

sounds fun   i'm just bummed cause either way i fix it probably wont happen until winter and i had planned on riding until there was snow on the ground before i put her up. now the decision is do i find a good condition used head or just replace the journals and bearings.  makes me wish i were rich so i could just go the best route.

Have you pulled the journal caps off yet to inspect them better? It looks like they were torqued to tight.

Those camshaft caps were broken by someone that loosened them up possibly to change shims or whatever and didn't know how to tighten them back down.  It's not uncommon, we've had them here before.  There is a dowel pin actually a sleeve that locates the caps with a snug fit so they are put back where they belong, the bores for the cams are reamed with the caps assembled at manufacture.  The letters are so you'll put them all back in the right place, A-B-C-D reading left to right front to back when assembled properly.  The breaking comes when they are not tightened evenly making sure the dowel is started into the cap before tightening further.  One side is hung up and other is tightened on down and crack!  Dowel is part 5: 

http://www.shspowersports.com/fiche_image_popup.asp?fveh=2102&section=92657&year=2001&make=SUZUKI&category=Motorcycles&dc=3378&name=CYLINDER+HEAD 

I wouldn't touch them until you are ready to fix.  You've been riding them that way so far for a month or two and want to keep riding until winter layup I gather.  I would but would not tell you to.  Your bike and your risk. 

Also I'd try it Budda's way myself and try to fit a couple new caps, looks like only B and D are the broken ones, are the other two OK?  I call it Budda's way in case it goes wrong.   

Quote from: gsJack on September 21, 2013, 09:31:23 PM
Those camshaft caps were broken by someone that loosened them up possibly to change shims or whatever and didn't know how to tighten them back down.  It's not uncommon, we've had them here before.  There is a dowel pin actually a sleeve that locates the caps with a snug fit so they are put back where they belong, the bores for the cams are reamed with the caps assembled at manufacture.  The letters are so you'll put them all back in the right place, A-B-C-D reading left to right front to back when assembled properly.  The breaking comes when they are not tightened evenly making sure the dowel is started into the cap before tightening further.  One side is hung up and other is tightened on down and crack!  Dowel is part 5: 

http://www.shspowersports.com/fiche_image_popup.asp?fveh=2102&section=92657&year=2001&make=SUZUKI&category=Motorcycles&dc=3378&name=CYLINDER+HEAD 

I wouldn't touch them until you are ready to fix.  You've been riding them that way so far for a month or two and want to keep riding until winter layup I gather.  I would but would not tell you to.  Your bike and your risk. 

Also I'd try it Budda's way myself and try to fit a couple new caps, looks like only B and D are the broken ones, are the other two OK?  I call it Budda's way in case it goes wrong.   

If you have an experienced drafter on hand you might be able to take the broken cam caps to him and have him model them best he can and mill them up in a haas or something. As long as you can get the tolerances correct you might be able to pull it off. It might actually be cheaper to do that instead of swapping the head. Weigh your options carefully.

Quote from: gsJack on September 21, 2013, 09:31:23 PM
Those camshaft caps were broken by someone that loosened them up possibly to change shims or whatever and didn't know how to tighten them back down.  It's not uncommon, we've had them here before.  There is a dowel pin actually a sleeve that locates the caps with a snug fit so they are put back where they belong, the bores for the cams are reamed with the caps assembled at manufacture.  The letters are so you'll put them all back in the right place, A-B-C-D reading left to right front to back when assembled properly.  The breaking comes when they are not tightened evenly making sure the dowel is started into the cap before tightening further.  One side is hung up and other is tightened on down and crack!  Dowel is part 5: 

http://www.shspowersports.com/fiche_image_popup.asp?fveh=2102&section=92657&year=2001&make=SUZUKI&category=Motorcycles&dc=3378&name=CYLINDER+HEAD 

I wouldn't touch them until you are ready to fix.  You've been riding them that way so far for a month or two and want to keep riding until winter layup I gather.  I would but would not tell you to.  Your bike and your risk. 

Also I'd try it Budda's way myself and try to fit a couple new caps, looks like only B and D are the broken ones, are the other two OK?  I call it Budda's way in case it goes wrong.   

that sounds about right to me.  how would i go about obtaining the journal caps? i don't see a part number for them, probably for the reason adidasguy stated.
also is it ok to reuse valve shims on the other valves is it's the size shim i need?

Reuse valve shims as long as you like, they'll last longer than the bike.  I bought new shims for my 97 a couple at a time as the one exhaust valve went down to a minimum 215 shim by 80k and am using the same ones on my 02 GS.  But going to the new .08-.13mm exhaust valve clearance setting on the 02 has stopped that and they hold like intakes now!  I do mike them when reusing and never have found any shim wear in 180k miles of GS riding.

By the way I should have said replacement bearing caps for the cams and not new ones, they are not sold separately.   Finding the caps could be the hard part of the job, maybe someone has an old head they are scrapping out.

Quote from: gsJack on September 22, 2013, 06:47:46 AM

By the way I should have said replacement bearing caps for the cams and not new ones, they are not sold separately.   Finding the caps could be the hard part of the job, maybe someone has an old head they are scrapping out.

replacement bearing caps= the cracked parts?  glad i can reuse the shims  the battle to find replacement parts feels like its going to be a long one.

Ahh this is the magic of the forums, you see. You never know who has what out there.

I actually am scrapping an out of commission head off my '04. The head is useless so I can get you my journal caps. Shoot me a PM!

Quote from: AlexT on September 22, 2013, 09:29:14 AM
Ahh this is the magic of the forums, you see. You never know who has what out there.

I actually am scrapping an out of commission head off my '04. The head is useless so I can get you my journal caps. Shoot me a PM!

pm sent