Quote from: gsJack on November 19, 2013, 03:36:23 PM
Knock it off sledge, you know that I no longer reply to you and have no regard for anything you have to say.  Over and out!

A knowledgeable,BUT annoying little fella. 

Quote from: fetor56 on November 19, 2013, 04:34:51 PM

Quote from: gsJack on November 19, 2013, 03:36:23 PM
Knock it off sledge, you know that I no longer reply to you and have no regard for anything you have to say.  Over and out!

A knowledgeable,BUT annoying little fella. 

I have Sledge on my ignore list. I don't see his posts and life is so much better now. Kind of like getting that annoying pebble out of your shoe.

Quote from: gsJack on November 19, 2013, 03:36:23 PM
Knock it off sledge, you know that I no longer reply to you and have no regard for anything you have to say.  Over and out!

I know you don't Jack, but unlike me others hang on to your every word, if you said the sky will turn pink at midday, most of the people in here will have very stiff necks by 12:15 :...People just don't stop to question you, and that why I don't like to see you giving misleading info out, because it might turn round and bite them on the ass

When it comes to telling people how to take things apart and put them back together you are up there at the top, same as Adidasguy but when it comes to telling people how and why parts are made, designed, function, assembled etc in the way they are and how they work in conjunction with each other its not always the case.....again same as Adidasguy 

I have invited you to research the subject of bearing arrangements and comment further but it seems you don't want to. I will invite anyone else asking the same question to do the same and find out for themselves what is right and what is wrong 

Over and out 

Quote from: sledge on November 19, 2013, 02:27:49 AM
Its very difficult not to seat them correctly, the outer races go hard up against a shoulder on the bottom of the housing.  It will be obvious when they are home.

Quote from: sledge on November 19, 2013, 06:44:37 AM
There has to be a slight distance between the bottom of outer race and the bottom of the housing on the RH side.

Quote from: sledge on November 19, 2013, 02:27:49 AM

Now here comes the kicker. Lets ask ourselves  a question......if wheel bearing preload is critical and needs to be set to a specific torque or clearance why isn't it quoted in the manual along with a detailed instructions in the way the procedure for setting up the taper-roller headrace bearing arrangement is 

Quote from: gsJack on November 19, 2013, 11:29:58 AM
If you've ever noticed the piece pressed into the GS wheel bores on one side that is size chosen at assembly so the outer races will be accurately spaced and the bearings will be properly and lightly preloaded when the axle nut is tighten.  By the way, the full lateral load of cornering is carried thru the bearings to the inner races and spacers before it is transmitted to the forks and swing arm.

Quote from: Janx101 on November 19, 2013, 05:31:45 PM

You do have a way of saying things Janx.   

So what happened to `over and out` 

Sorry about the typo Jack, it was getting late over here at the time. Would you like me to go back and edit it for you to avoid any further confusion

Now....The real question.

Have you done any research on the subject of single row deep groove bearings and fixed/floating arrangements yet..........OR are you going to carry on disputing what I, Suzuki themselves and engineering convention say is right and instead desperately try to find minor mistakes and inaccuracies in my comments in an attempt to try and gain some credibility back?

I will be happy to give you some more links and pointers if you want and will again say if anyone else out there wants to know right from wrong they can research it for themselves and draw their own conclusions

You have seem to have the same issues as Addidasguy does Jack in that you cant accept that sometimes you are wrong, you don't like it when its pointed out to you and you refuse to accept the proof when its presented to you.......... Unfortunately that's your problem, not mine 

i've read it a few times, and tried to find where either of you are wrong. i don't see it. there are insignificant contradictions in some posts, but that's about it.


as far as different types of bearings, yes, there are MANY different types of bearings. i don't see how a floating bearing on one side will benefit the wheel setup other than causing premature wear or damage to the opposite bearing, but only IF THERE WAS AN ISSUE WITH SPACING to begin with.


now, if you get those spacer lengths wrong wether it's the internal or external ones, yes , there will be problems down the line.


this is why i mentioned testing the tension on the center spacer with a pinky.

if it's jammed in place and does not move at all, there -might- be an issue with being over tightened axle nut, at some time, or a damaged internal spacer, or both.

if it's loose and floppy, one or both of the bearings may be beyond service life, and need replacing or a spacing issue with the bores vs internal spacer.

some folks even install the wrong bearings (here, we have a reason to consult the manual) and end up with an assembly stack up problem, but might not know if for some time.


but keep in mind, i'm running a front gs500 wheel BACKWARDS, with a larger axle (and bearings) fitted with tires too small, or a bike not intended for 17" wheels, and spacers cut out of conduit and flat filed to size.

so it's kinda like staying in a holiday inn express last night.

or wikipedia

Quote from: ohgood on November 20, 2013, 09:30:44 AM
as far as different types of bearings, yes, there are MANY different types of bearings. i don't see how a floating bearing on one side will benefit the wheel setup

The floating arrangement is for two reasons.

Thermal expansion or contraction:  The bearings need somewhere to go if the shaft they are fitted on shrinks or expands due to heat/cold, even if its only a couple of thou`. If the shaft grows by say 0.003` when its hot or (shrinks by the same amount) when cold it will push the inner race 0.003 into the outer race if the outer face is fixed.....that's unwanted preload and leads to premature failure, usually flaking or cage failure.

Manufacturing tolerances:  Bearing are manufactured to tolernaces in microns, the distance between the bottom of the bearing housings through the hub and the length of the various spacer tubes is not so an allowance has to be made somewhere

Have a glance through this...... http://www.skf.com/files/259501.pdf

I was going to suggest Jack has a flick through it also 

"The guidance and support of a rotating shaft requires at least two bearings arranged at a certain distance from each other. Depending on the application, a decision is made between a locating/non-locating bearing arrangement, an adjusted bearing arrangement and a floating bearing arrangement.
   
Locating/non-locating
bearing arrangement

On a shaft supported by two radial bearings, the distances between the bearing seats on the shaft and in the housing frequently do not coincide as a result of manufacturing tolerances. The distances may also change as a result of temperature increases during operation. These differences in distance are compensated in the non-locating bearing"

From here........ http://medias.ina.com/medias/en!hp.tg.cat/tg_hr*ST4_1652155275

...and this comes from a manufacturer

Done a few hundred ot this type of bearing set ups on cars. You bottom out the outer race in the hub on both sides, of course with the spacer installed, then torque down the nut to specs. On autos you stake the nut. On bikes you don't stake the nut but accomplsh the same with a cotter key.

After 60,000 hours including owning my own shop for 28,000 of those 60k, I find if I read Jacks posts, I learn the difference between my own personal experience and the experience of Jacks and his way of communicating that experience which brings me to his level of specific experience combined with my own personal experience. The cumulative total of those two experiences is greater than 99% of most people who have been in the trade for over 30 years, which works fine for me.

I find that if we disagree on any process or procedure (very very rarely), I still benefit from his different approach and technique. I might even find a better refinement of my procedure from his imput (different perspective).

Now when someone comes here and tries to say I follow anyone blindly, they simply do not know me, my experience, or my deliberate apporach to problem resolution. Generally that is a waste of time and I have yet to find a single example of it not being a waste of time.

regards
Mech

Quote from: Old Mechanic on November 20, 2013, 11:49:11 AM
Done a few hundred ot this type of bearing set ups on cars. You bottom out the outer race in the hub on both sides, of course with the spacer installed, then torque down the nut to specs. On autos you stake the nut. On bikes you don't stake the nut but accomplsh the same with a cotter key.

Lets not get confused here..........Unlike bikes cars generally use a back to back taper roller bearing arrangement in the hubs on which preload IS critical. It is achieved by applying a specified torque to the nut and locking it down in the way you describe

Never seen a chain drive bike that uses taper rollers in the hub but there might be one out there somewhere 

Split pin, (or cotter pin as some call it) on the GS is just for retaining the nut and preventing a nasty accident, some countries construction and use regulations demand one is fitted when the bike is first sold.

Quote from: Old Mechanic on November 20, 2013, 11:49:11 AM


I find that if we disagree on any process or procedure (very very rarely), I still benefit from his different approach and technique. I might even find a better refinement of my procedure from his imput (different perspective).

regards
Mech

+1 to Jack and applies to sledge too. I find that my history with my bike does not seem to mirror jack's, but then I never got a bike that wasn't used and abused well before I got it ... sledge while nit picky has a range of technical range putting him in a league of his own.

Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: sledge on November 20, 2013, 09:56:36 AM

Quote from: ohgood on November 20, 2013, 09:30:44 AM
as far as different types of bearings, yes, there are MANY different types of bearings. i don't see how a floating bearing on one side will benefit the wheel setup

The floating arrangement is for two reasons.

Thermal expansion or contraction:  The bearings need somewhere to go if the shaft they are fitted on shrinks or expands due to heat/cold, even if its only a couple of thou`. If the shaft grows by say 0.003` when its hot or (shrinks by the same amount) when cold it will push the inner race 0.003 into the outer race if the outer face is fixed.....that's unwanted preload and leads to premature failure, usually flaking or cage failure.

Manufacturing tolerances:  Bearing are manufactured to tolernaces in microns, the distance between the bottom of the bearing housings through the hub and the length of the various spacer tubes is not so an allowance has to be made somewhere

Have a glance through this...... http://www.skf.com/files/259501.pdf

I was going to suggest Jack has a flick through it also 

OK, now you're bullshitting to try and sound knowledgeable.

You know, our should know, that heat is not a problem, or consideration, in these bearings' application.

If the shaft grows 3 thou from heat, so do the races, the alloy hub purply grows 5.

I can pull PDFs out of my ass all day long too, but it will only serve to make us both look like one.

You owe jack an apology for your bullshit today. I don't need one, our care. 

If you want to debate what I suggested earlier, fine. I won't continue with any conversation that serves plainly and mainly to degrade folks here though.

And I never specified tapered rollers in my comments. In fact I was talking about ball bearings like those in the rear of a Nissan Z car as well as many FWD setups, which also used caged ball bearings. Also manual Nissan transmissions as well as other applications. Most of the tapered tollers I worked with were the older generation non driven hub over axle types, which are the basis of a Patent I hold for an infinitely variable in wheel hydraulic drive, loosely based on the WW1 era rotary aircraft engine which incorporated a fixed crankshaft with the block, cylinders, con rods, and pistons rotating around the fixed crank on ball bearings.

regards
Mech

Quote from: ohgood on November 20, 2013, 01:17:26 PM
OK, now you're bullshitting to try and sound knowledgeable.


You owe jack an apology for your bullshit today.

Forgive me for saying so but you sound like another one who doesn't like to proven wrong.

The link which contains the statement that mirrors mine comes from the Schaeffler product catalogue, Schaeffler is the parent company to INA and nancy boy, two of the worlds largest producers of rolling bearings......If you don't believe what the manufacturers themselves say who will you believe 

http://www.schaeffler.co.uk/content.schaeffler.co.uk/en/index.jsp

As for apologies for BS........I am not the one spouting the BS 

EDIT....For nancy boy read F.A.G. 

Quote from: Old Mechanic on November 20, 2013, 02:29:11 PM
And I never specified tapered rollers in my comments. In fact I was talking about ball bearings like those in the rear of a Nissan Z car as well as many FWD setups, which also used caged ball bearings.

If they were in a car wheel hub I suspect they were probably angular contact bearings, possibly 52 or 53 series, Very similar to single row deep groove but able to handle a lot more axial load.....and like taper roller rollers they too need to be preloaded to function effectively.

http://www.ntnamericas.com/en/products/ball-bearings/angular-contact

Quote from: sledge on November 20, 2013, 04:47:51 PM

Quote from: ohgood on November 20, 2013, 01:17:26 PM
OK, now you're bullshitting to try and sound knowledgeable.


You owe jack an apology for your bullshit today.

1 Forgive me for saying so but you sound like another one who doesn't like to proven wrong.

2 The link which contains the statement that mirrors mine comes from the Schaeffler product catalogue, Schaeffler is the parent company to INA and nancy boy, two of the worlds largest producers of rolling bearings......If you don't believe what the manufacturers themselves say who will you believe 

3 http://www.schaeffler.co.uk/content.schaeffler.co.uk/en/index.jsp

4 As for apologies for BS........I am not the one spouting the BS 

5 EDIT....For nancy boy read F.A.G. 

i numbered these, and was going to respond to each one. but now, i have one question instead.

would you like to discuss it, or act flippant, immature, and name call ? i can do either, but the former is more appealing.

... sledge while nit picky has a range of technical range putting him in a league of his own.

Cool.
Buddha.
[/quote]

I'd guess your not an engineer?