Srinath-

I don't know what facts I am ignoring.  I stated that two of your bars broke when in fact three did.  I believe that your 'upgrades' to strengthen the bars are mechanically a band-aid at best.  What did I misrepresent?  My opinion and the facts come together to form what I have said.  My assertions, which you disagree with, are not necessecarily inaccurate just because your opinions differ.

TT Four-

In order for your Wal-Mart analogy to work, you will have to modify it a little.  I consider Srinath the manufacturer rather than the retailer since he has direct control over the construction of the bars.  In your analogy, I would have to go into Wal-Mart, point at the wall, and tell all the manufacturers to get out of (insert business here).  In many cases I would do that very thing.  

There are some businesses like child safety seats, helmets, smoke detectors, ect. that I take deadly seriously.  Their sole reason for existance is to protect someone's life, and people put their full faith in such products.  Having a recall on these type of products is reprehensible.  Most of the time, the consumer won't know if such a product is defective until it fails (ie, car seat, helmet).  In the case of Srinath's bars, people (except for the third instance) didn't know the bar was failing until it was too late.  The motorcycle handlebar is the rider's critical connection for control of the bike.  

To lose half of one's bar while riding is an abrupt, and catastropic event.  I had that happen to me while riding BMX, and it was one of the worst wrecks I've ever had since the kinetic energy released when it broke caused serious momentum behind my body, and I came down partially down an my front wheel.  Now imagine that on the pavement at speed.  

I don't know haw many of you have been down on a motorcycle, but in my experience it was a horrible, painful, impossible to forget incident.  My riding suffers to this day with that moment haunting my thoughts and the sounds to my body hitting the pavement echoing in my ears.  I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, and would hate for anyone to experience a freeway lowside courtesey of a poorly engineered and executed bar.

KeL-

I consider a 'proven' product one that has substantal R&D.  I know that Srinath tested his bars, but in companies that do this type of thing all the time, they would have put much more testing into them.  Srinath's bars that broke were essentially Beta testing models, so it is not surprising that some failed.  A company in the business of making motorcycle bars would have been deep into their third or fourth generation before selling to the general public.  

The early failures, and an apparent misunderstanding of how a motorcyle bar needs to function are the main reasons that I object to Srinath's continued production.  As I stated before, the bar should be the first part to bend in a tip over or wreck, sacrificing itself to protect the triples, forks, and related componetry.  However, it should not ever fail at a weld.  If welds are correctly executed they will be as strong as the remainder of the bar, and bend as if they were one piece (because with correct penetration they are).  

I understand you guys all defending Srinath, and commend you for loyalty, I simply challenge you to inspect your own agendas and make sure that loyalty and friendship are not clouding a situation that would have normally appalled you.  I do not care what you all think of me, but I do appreciate the fact that for the most part you have collectively refrained from personal attacks and name calling.

Aaron

so what about the case gaurds,  and if you want to let me barrow a set of 01+ bars I can take pics of them on my buddies 04,  when i get back.

Hey Davipu,
How was the ride cross country ... damn man we want to know.

Hey Aplitz...
2 broke after I issued the recall, and 1 broke in a crash before the recall and that is the fact you ignored. OnceI recall them and people have taken them off like I told them to the 2 would never have happened. But ... OK weld should never fail...agreed, but here is 2 things you are forgetting... the weld is as strong as the rest of the bar, except the part right next to the weld. That has been heated to glowing red and cooled suddenly, they all tear there. My first iteration is lying on the floor of my garage, the second is on Gino's bike... which I have been trying to get back for the last 6 months... the third iteration was one of the ones I still have but its been broken and welded back many times after, the fourth iteration is what I sold. Simply put... we ground off the welds to nothing. The 5th iteration is the rod inside. The rod is no band aid.In fact if someone is making handlebars for a GS with anything thinner than 3/16 wall and is not using an insert... that is wrong.... Why... a easier to bend bar does not save other components... An easier to bend bar just dents your tank and breaks the dash and other delicates in a crash. The stock bar can be easy to bend because it is above the tank. It will bend and not hit the tank in some cases. Crash hard and the bars will bend letting the tank hit the ground and dent itself as well. In the case of SM's they have not thought of that in terms of the GS. The first few I made from 1/8th wall, then switched to 3/16 for this reason, the welds being ground off was just idiotic, and I wasn't watching the guy do it... My mistake, I know. The handle bar going on a GS has to be extremely hard to bend, and a 1/8th wall wont do. A 3/16 will be fine, but a 1/8th with rod insert as anchor works the same. No bandaid. Its to make them as strong as the 3/16th. You have not seen th process or debated with any other handle bar manufacturer, and hence I can only assume you are talking mostly out of here say ... which could be quite accurate not disputing that, but SM does not even fit the bars on a GS, one of us did it first and probably told them, and hence they list it there now... I think it was Pantablo, SM also repairs bars that bend or break, and if they bend or break guess what their bars also hit... the tank. If you are only talking about bikemasters, flanders or MSR or other aftermarket superbike style makers I'll fully concede that they are proven... why... they are 1 piece and are designed to run 3-4 inches above the tank. Nothing that is cut and welded, and is level with the tank/triple... can be less than 3/16 or not have a 1/2 inch rod inserted it its 1/8th. It wont be strong enough to let the tank come through un scathed in even a light crash. The bars dont have to bend to save the triple... the triple is in there in rubber doughnuts, and you will chew up those doughnuts if the triple has enough force... that's its function. I have on my 89 in a crash in 2000. Bars staying rigid will save your tank in most cases and the dash and headlights and turnsignals in a crash. Mine bent in a banana and left a big dent in the tank. This is an 89 BTW so the bars are already the low ones. And ther are far more rigid than the 90 and later ones cos they are shorter. You really dont want the low rise bars to bend or break at all on the GS.
Cool.
Srinath.

Seriously, aplitz, you are driving me nuts.  I trust srinath 10 times more than I trust suzuki, and I've never met him.  A major corporation that puts out bargain stuff ala suzuki cuts corners everywhere to keep manufacturing costs down.  Plus when they have failures, the accountants carefully weigh the cost of lawsuits against the cost of a recall.  THATs what got ford in so much trouble, they were trying to hush the whole thing up.  

I remember when Srinath found out the bars had the weld problem and he felt terribly.  He had the problem analyzed and dealt with it with more than enough factor of safety. I was actually, incredibly impressed by his handling of the whole affair, both professionaly and personally.  I'm even more impressed how he's handling your uncalled for aggressive badgering.  

If you're so scared of his handlebars, then don't get them and leave the guy alone.  He doesn't deserve that kind of crap from the likes of you.

Diderich-

You may think that my comments are uncalled for.  However, I believe that any failure of such a critical component is inexcusable.  In life there are consequences for one's actions, and I don't see Srinath having to endure any consequences.  Although he did shoulder the cost of making replacement bars, that is just a minimal consequence.  Exactly who do you trust him more?  So far he has had three failures, all of which were potential catastrophies.  I would consider him and extremely lucky person who is now pushing his luck.  

I am in no way saying that Suzuki is perfect.  They do have a much longer development cycle that was not completed in this case.  I called the bars Beta models because they were from the first generation of design following the initial mock-ups.  They may have been made steps after the first ones, but there does not seem to have been any evolution of the design along with thurough testing.  If there had been, and some bars broke, then the problem would have been addressed in the next generation.  Apparently this did not take place.  

Additionally, I disagree that he has fully addressed the problem.  Adding rod into the bars does not make the welds themselves stronger.  All it does is serve a backing material that can accept penetration.  Unless he is drilling through the bar on either end of a weld and plug welding the bar to the inserted rod there is no more strength there than before.  In fact, it is very likely that the welds may be weaker since more heat is required to get penetration into both bar parts as well as the solid rod.  A light duty MIG will not have the output to achieve this, so a serious industrial machine would be necessecary.

Aaron

Damn!!

I cant believe what a dickhead Aplitz is being about the whole situation!!

Makes me want to call up srinath and order a set of bars to fix my bike with.

A.

how many times do you need to be told that only one persons bars broke before the recall? even if 15 bars snapped after than, and half the people ended up in the hospital, that's not srinaths fault after he told people to take the bars off, so as of right now, he stands at making one mistake by filing down the welds too far, and he didn't make any guaruntees or promises, he made the handlebars, and sold them, it's anyone's job who bought the handlebars, to acctually look at them, and decide for themselves if they thought they were safe enough to put on their bike, which they should do if it was srinaths bars, suzuki bars, or suburban machinery bars, it really doesn't matter, just get off it already, or else accept this method of fail once and give up, and next time when you try to teach your kid to ride a bicycle, and he falls off and  hurts his arm, or you're teaching him to play catch, and he misjudges and gets a baseball in the face, realize you screwed up, don't deserve to be a father, and put the kid up for adoption, is that how this is supposed to work? or is that analogy wrong too?

People who have arguments with little strength must resort to name calling in order to make any impact.  

How many times do I have to say that I don't care when the bars broke?  The fact that any broke at all is utterly wrong.  I agree that the customer must beware when purchasing a product, but there is a certain expectation of engineering that one would expect in this type of item.  It does not matter if he made any promises as to the bars effectiveness.  He was selling handlebars, not 'amazing break away stunt magic bars!'  

They were were billed as handlebars and the expectation of such a crucial item is that they would stay together.  If they easily developed surface rust, or caused a strange riding position I honestly would not care.  Those are quality control issues.  Fracturing welds is an engineering problem, and one that cannot be cured by an 'Oops, I'm sorry.'  This goes beyond any issue that anyone should ever expect to encounter in the important components of their motorcycle.

Aaron

OK I guess everyone is sitting away at the computer on a saturday...
OK The first gen bars were cut and welded in 4 places just like the SM's, and I thought they were not strong enough after breaking them that I tossed them wihtout ever fititng it on the bike, the second gen was also welded in 4 places, and it was strong, but a little crooked. I had Gino's bike at my house then, had him see and feel the bars and he wanted them on in place of his drag bars. I wanted someone to try it, so I gave him those free. The third gen I bent the center piece and now the bars had 2 welds, not 4. I also was getting consistent fit and strength... and I went to using 3/16 wall because I wanted the strength ...since these are level with the tank, any deflection of these will hurt the tank, so these have to be strong. At this point people were saying the welds were ugly and the bars look crappy etc... so I was telling one guy that I wanted them smooth as possible ... the rest as they say is history. Then when I made the recall, I had to have bars made which were as strong as the 3/16th's, and I couldn't wait the month for 3/16 tubing to come. Hence I inserted a rod... and you said drilled and plug welded... if you had seen any of the 20 or so pics I posted up... you'd have known... exaclty what I did. Fit them in the straight pieces and weld them in, then drill 3/8 holes in the center piece weld the bars into that... take them off the jig and twist them around... making sure the rod is welded to the tubing, then welding it all the way around. And yes I also have the weld faces on the bars ground to be a convergent trench sorta fit when put together, bevelled in technical terms. Like I said... no band aid. This run I am in gen 6, OK same as gen 5 moslty, but I am analysing the welds with one of them X ray things. And suzuki bars have bent when someone I know was about to set the bike on the side stand, and as it begins to go down, they realize the side stand is not down... and then pull up on the bars to keep it from going down. I dont say I am not responsible for any of the damage caused from the bars breaking... and yes I do believe I got lucky... I was alerted to the problem when an unrelated accident happened. And yes I know there were 2 guys that have had it break, but many more contnued using it months after the recall, when either replacements were on the way or they were going to take it off and send it.. and none broke, the ones that sent them to me... I promptly put them in the vice and broke them, and they all took a good deal of muscle before they snapped. And not all of them failed clean at the weld... while some did... it was only after a good deal of load.... something you'll never see on a bike. I would pretty much conclude... out of the 30... or close I made 3 or less had been ground to nothing in the set I first sold. OK there are still a few that have not come back to me... what else do I do... go to their house and take it...    Anyway hope that cleared up some of it. I posted a lot ofpics from last time... I will try to do it this time as well, but I have gone past the cut and bend stages, just the drill and weld is left on 1 lot. 01+'s I haven't even started...
Cool.
Srinath.

Quote from: aplitz
How many times do I have to say that I don't care when the bars broke?  The fact that any broke at all is utterly wrong.  

that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard, you can't expect anything to not break, there's not a single thing on earth that won't brake, if you're not willing to face the chances of getting hurt, you shouldn't be riding down the road going 50mph on two wheels anyway, if that's all you're worried about, you better stick to parking your bike in the garage and looking at it, cause that's the only way nothing's gonna break on it, i've had handlebars bend, footpegs snap, tires go flat, all within the last year of riding, and only being 20 years old, i know there's gonna be a ton more stuff to go while my bike's under me in the next 50 years, all i can do is wear all my gear and have fun while it's all in one peice, and as of right now, i can't wait to get my new handlebars, i promise, if you stop complaining, we won't hold it against you,

Quote from: tt_fourhow many times do you need to be told that only one persons bars broke before the recall? even if 15 bars snapped after than, and half the people ended up in the hospital, that's not srinaths fault after he told people to take the bars off, so as of right now, he stands at making one mistake by filing down the welds too far, and he didn't make any guaruntees or promises, he made the handlebars, and sold them, it's anyone's job who bought the handlebars, to acctually look at them, and decide for themselves if they thought they were safe enough to put on their bike, which they should do if it was srinaths bars, suzuki bars, or suburban machinery bars, it really doesn't matter, just get off it already, or else accept this method of fail once and give up, and next time when you try to teach your kid to ride a bicycle, and he falls off and  hurts his arm, or you're teaching him to play catch, and he misjudges and gets a baseball in the face, realize you screwed up, don't deserve to be a father, and put the kid up for adoption, is that how this is supposed to work? or is that analogy wrong too?

Not to nit pick... This seems like the classic " same side goal "in soccer  where you knock the ball in your team's goal... but... 1 bar broke in a hard crash... 2 broke a few weeks after I started screaming recall. And you couldn't actually see they were bad... they were smooth and painted over and they all looked good even before painting. The bars also stood up to putting in a vice and pulling on it. Put a 8ft pipe over it and pull it and they snapped that's just the ones that came back to me.
Cool.
Srinath.

tt_four wrote:

Quotethat's the dumbest thing i've ever heard

Surely that must be an exaggeration (but if its not at least I have amazed you in some way) .  Just because you believe that its OK for handlebars to break, does not mean that they should not.  I believe that there are some things that we use that should be relitavely failure free while in use.  Helmets, smoke detectors, major vehicle components, etc.  The reason that the handlebars failing while in use bothers me so much is the fact that they are your only link to the majority of your bike's controls.  Like yourself, I have had numerous equipment failures while operating vehicles in the past.  I will not however turn this into a pissing contest where we try to one up each other with horror stories.  Suffice to say that I've had my share.  

The difference is that most vehicle components have a back up or some other contingency to ensure safe operation.  For instance, while I was backing my company's Cat motor grader off its trailer, the hydraulic brakes failed.  I had to shift into a forward gear and use the clutch and emergency crank brake to stop the Cat from hitting the house we were building.  I say this to illustrate the levels of control we have in the operation of a compromised vehicle.

In the case to a bar breaking at a weld while moving, if you by some miracle manage to stay on the bike, you are probably SOL in regaining control since you will loose either your front brake and kill switch together or clutch as well as directional control from half of your bars.  In your discussion, a failed tire leaves you with your other brake as well as clutch and handlebars to control the bike.  A failed brake leaves the other intact since they are exclusive systems (on the GS).  A broken foot peg will in most cases, excluding extreme cornering and stand up wheeling, probably leave you still on the bike with numerous methods of bringing the bike to a stop.  The bars are your way of having control over the primary operations of the bike, and the handlebars must be as trustworthy as possible.

This is what blows my mind about people defending Srinath's bars.  His product violated an extremely important trust, yet several people have expressed that they trust him to the Nth degree.  Why?  Because of his reputation on this board?  Because he knows so much about the GS?  Because you like his online personality?  What makes him so trustworthy?  In reality, we only know as much about each other as we share here.  We cannot know enough soley from contrived interactions in an internet forum to make such statements of trust.  

And yes TT I would reccomend that you get out of making analogies since there are some problems with that last one too.

I admire Srinath for his willingness to confront his mistakes, and commend him on attempting to make the product better this time around.  What I wonder it is that makes building your own bars worth all the risk?   The potential injury to fellow riders, legal liability, cost of recall, time invested, etc, weighs against what great reward?  Accolades for a good, inexpensive product?  What exactly it is that makes this so rewarding to overcome potential disadter is not readily apparent.  

I'm confident that the newest bars will be failure free; however, I think we all thought the same thing the first time around.  What my major issue revolves around is the protection of the community.  This forum is an invaluable resource, and as I've said before, I would hate to see it tainted by the loss of a member due to another's product.  I feel that sourcing such vital components from outside our tight circle may save a great deal of heartache down the road.  

Its not that others' components are so vastly superior or failure proof, but they are not your internet buddy.  As I shared before, the loss of a club member in a violent accident is an experience that weighs heavy on any club, and the addition of finger pointing toward another member outweighs any value that could be gleaned from producing one's own handle bars.  It is myopic to neglect one's intelligence by failing to play out future events as they are effected by current actions.

Aaron

Aaron, its sweet that you are so concerned about Srinaths legal and financial situation and time, and the mental fragility of all of us on the board.  You're right, if we wait ANOTHER 15 years of production, someone might start making aftermarket parts for the GS.

Also, my handlebars have TWO handles.  Judging from the track instructor waving at me as he passed me on the outside of turn 7...i have to conclude that I don't need BOTH of my handles...hell I've proven to myself that I can turn and stop without touching the handlebars at all...the chicks dig that trick, or so I tell myself.

I also have TWO brakes, I don't even use the cut off unless i'm already stopped and...hmmmmm...only one clutch..you got me there, but as I recall, the wheel spins the sprocket spins the chain spins the transmission, spins the clutch spins the crank...nope..nothing shoots up my ass and lays eggs in my brain!  I might get a ticket for not signalling if the left bar snaps off.  True, true, it COULD snap off and get tangled in a wheel or something, or a car could pull out in front of me, or I could suddenly have a stroke from worrying about everything all the time.

You obviously feel strongly about this, but I feel you are slandering Srinath wrongly, with blatant scare tactics.  You are like corporate culture incarnate or something.  To think that an actual, unincorporated human beings can't make things of their own two hands, is weird to me.  Feel free to object, but this is my last post on this subject.

OK man, finally it makes sense, atleast to me... all this time I thought you were pushing something (SM's I thought). I will do a weld X ray, possibly have davipu do it as well for a neutral test. I'll put up pictures of the whole construction process again... and say that these are the facts, however they are not implying any further guarantee just because I am on this site. I got the design, and the method to a perfect set, getting identical results in both shape and strength. I dont want to stop at this point. The GS has been looooong ignored by the aftermarket and continues to be ignored... heck even suzuki is ignoring it... These are made on a GS, they fit it like a glove. Stopping at this time will be also IMHO as bad as putting out a bad product... Ok not as bad but you get the idea. If any one else wants to do this I'll show you how... the knowledge is free. So make your own. I cant send you the jig though, its on a big plate at my welders with the other jigs he has. But I made a few wihtout a jig in the begining and they were OK. How is that guys.
Cool.
Srinath.

Diderich-

There are aftermarket parts for the GS you have to hunt a little and be willing to pay moe than $20 for something.  As Srinath is aware, it takes time and an investment to produce a product.  That is why aftermarket parts cost money.  The GS does not have huge support because itis a starter bike that people generally trade up from quickly.  However, I have found some really great parts for my bike.

Taking your hands off the bars to wave, and otherwise riding without full contact with the bike is so vastly different from having one half catastrophically fail that they cannot be compared.

If you lose your left handlebar, and in the unlikely event that the kinetic energy of your body weight does not hurl you onto the pavement, you may have some trouble stopping cleanly.  The same goes for losing throttle and kill control.  What makes this portion of the discussion so irrelevant is that you will probably not be on the bike anymore.  As I said before, in my BMX incident, gravity deposited me directly onto my front wheel when the bar failed.

Srinath-

If I was pushing something I really suck at it.  By this point I should have at least mentiond the product at least once.  If you feel that your new design is better (which I would agree with from your changes thus far) than only you can decide if its worth the risk to continue.  I believe that we were very lucky that the earlier incidents did not turn out a badly as they could have, and I thought that some perspective was necessecary in order to look at this matter in an honest way.  While personally I think that the consequence of such a terrible failure should be ceasing production, I understand the desire to perfect and proceed.  I only ask that you build each bar as if your own life rested on their grips.

Aaron

Absolutely man... Actually you gave me an Idea... OK OK, I thought about it the whole damn day...
I understand where you are comming from... simply put... you dont want one of us killing/hurting another of us... that will be twice or more... the pain.
I also dont want to sell my bars with a warning label... saying use at your risk... so here is the idea....
Watch the page...
Cool.
Srinath.

how bout this~!!!

srintath----- I want ur fairing (haha), and i love how ur trying to help us to find alternatvie ways of saving money! good 4 you!!

aplitz---- -sorry kid         but we got ur point, "you dont like srinthath or his bars"            good for you!!!
but serously     you made your point                      GET OFF HIS BACK!!   :guns:  

diderich------ IM with you,  i go for the cheap stuff ( i have o dollars)
im saving up for a gsxr 1

tt-four----- "that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard, you can't expect anything to not break, there's not a single thing on earth that won't brake,"

what u said right there rocks...

for all of u doubting him,    do u know those plastic water bottles ( tht r supposly unbreakable)        i brake them for fun during track season

anything can brake    even named           "unbreakable"

srinthath     never said they wouldn't brake....      there strongg though
strong strong

and they rock                     thnx!!

i lost many a little black combs when i was younger, all because someone felt the need to imprint "unbreakable" real big on the side, and when you're a kid, all you can think is "i'll show that comb what's up", poor combs :dunno:

Right, cuz when I think handle bar I think plastic combs, I for one know my life is dependant on the structural intregity of my comb.  In a wreck or other extreme force you should not expect any bar to come through without breaking.  The difference is that one of the original bars failed while someone was riding in a parking lot.  If you think its OK for a handle bar to break why not fab one thogether with tubing and JB Weld?  I think that Srinath has been making big strides in the right direction, and commend him on his composure.  I wish you the best of luck in the next run.

Aaron

we got a baby