I read David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling, and it is an excellent book, but he seems to recommend avoiding engine braking in favor of getting on that front brake.  My problem is that 20 years ago I used to take my 5 speed Celica through the same roads I ride my GS500 on now, and I would slide that car through corners and use engine braking to slow it down going in.  Hough says not to do that on the bike, and last night in my very first effort to ride twisty roads, I found old habits die hard, even if they are habits from 20 years ago.  I kept letting the engine brake that bike going into turns.

In one case, I ?think? this happened:  I went into a curve and halfway through it, I slacked off the throttle.  The engine started to brake the bike, and it stood up a little, pointing off the road.  I somehow remembered to push harder on the handlerbar despite the sudden panic rising in my gut, and the bike dropped back over and continued into the turn.  Note that these were very, very tight turns, and I was taking it easy, so I was probably only doing 30 mph, and while it felt like I was leaning the bike, I'm sure by experienced rider standards, the bike was practically straight up to begin with.  The car on my butt wasn't having any trouble staying there.

Anyway, thoughts?  Should I have had a hold of that brake?  Is the engine braking bad?  Thank you.

Smooth Dave

It's not bad unless you're in a turn.  Then ANY braking is bad.  You should be on the gas in the turn gradually accelerating as you go through.  All braking should be done and over with before you're leaning over.

Front only, rear only, and engine only are all bad braking techniques; use all three brakes all the time.  That's what they are there for.

When only a moderate amount of braking is required in a turn, the rear brake is most effective.  Use of the rear brake in a turn settles the suspension much the same as accelerating does.  Use of the front brake and of engine braking tend to stand the bike up.

David Hough and the MSF courses teach you to brake completely before the turn and accelerate through it and this is excellent advice for new riders.  You will however sooner or later  find youself into a turn too fast and have to slow a bit, so it's best to develop your braking in turns skills before they are desperately needed.

If your are trying to maintain a spirited pace with friends that have more powerful bikes, you will soon find it is necessary to brake late and to brake into the turns to maintain as much speed as possible.  Speed is regained slowly on a GS500.   :lol:  On the track this is called trail braking, on the street it is called fun.  I rarely meet a turn I don't brake in when riding in a spirited manner.

Who taught David Hough how to ride?

GS Jack is right.  Use all three.  In Manhattan you have to use engine  big time.  The streets are very bumpy, you need all the stopping power you can get.  If you don't, you'll be eating taxi bumpers.

IMO the only bad thing about compression (aka engine) braking is that it can fool you into using too little front brake. When in doubt, use more front brake! Engine braking will provide that extra bit of friction to the rear wheel, but on today's sport bikes with big fat front calipers (ie not exactly the GS, but you've got to learn somewhere), the majority of braking force is located at the front brake.

and something to add... if your chain is too tight and you are riding agressive, you will get alot of sliding trail braking into corners with alot of engine braking.. make sure you're chain is ajusted as per the manual.. any tighter your engine braking will be alot more pronounced in the rear tire.

From what I remember something like 70% of your stopping power is in the front brake since when the bike slows down the weight all shifts toward the front wheel (and off the rear).

So since engine braking is basically the same as the rear brake in that it slows the rear wheel he reccomends using the front brake more.

As far as braking in a turn goes, it can cause you to lose the line. Accelerating through the corner tightens the suspension up and lets you hold the corner easier.

Thanks MSF!  :mrgreen:

One of my instructors addressed this issues with the statement:
"How much does your engine and chain cost?  How much does new brake pads cost?  Now which would you rather use to brake?"

Both brakes to slow for the corner, select the right gear, enter the corner with constant throttle and use rear brake to control your speed and line to the apex, throttle out of the corner.  Get the technique right and more speed is a nice little side effect  

Best thing is to get yourself onto an advanced riding course with a focus on street cornering (subtle differences to track cornering techniques where you will generally enter wide and exit wide which is not always the safest way to ride on public roads).

Cheers
Conrad

I heard a similar statement in "Twist of the Wrist". His main reasoning for not engine braking were:
1. Its extra wear and tear on the engine (like Conradvr said)

2. The increased vibration from the engine could be mistaken for lost traction or odd feelings from the tires. Most of us will probably not notice the difference since reading traction that minute must take hours on the track.

He also said don't run your bike into the redline while going into turns because that actually slows you down. This sounds like what might have happened to you going into that turn which caused you to stand up.  :dunno:

Dirt bikes and the GS500 have a pretty narrow power band and you have to shift a lot to keep in power. Using down shifting as braking keeps you in the right gear and ready to power out. If you ride with bigger bikes you have to keep on the pipe to keep up. Trying to down shift when you are hot into a turn is tough. Going into the turn with proper speed with about 7000 rpm lets you come out really hot.
If you are just cruising, it is probably better to use the brakes, but if you are tring to fly with this little bike you had better keep it wound tight.

The link below is an article on cornering technique.  Note comment that if you use engine braking into and through the corner you will load the front suspension and run wide.  Use the throttle to keep the revs up not engine braking!

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_0004_rss/


Cheers
Conrad

One thing that engine braking will not do is activate your brake light.

If you use engine braking to stop in lieu of your brakes, no one around you knows.

If I want to come out of a turn hot, I had better have this bike reved up. I can't be down shifting in the turn because I really have to be smooth. When I down shift coming into the turn I'm keeping the bike in its power band. To use the rear brake while I'm doing this is an over kill. From 6000 to 10000 rpm this is pretty heavy engin breaking for the rear tire. I will use the front brake if I deed to and this will light the brake light.
If I use the rear brake to set up my speed for the turn without constanly down shifiting I would then have to decide before I'm into the turn how many gears I have to drop to be ready to pull out. I don't like to think about it. It seems totaly natural to use engine braking for the back and the front if I need more.
Maybe I have spent to much time on two stroke dirt bikes. But if I don't keep it wound tight all the time I get lost as to what gear I need.
Of course I only do this when I'm wanting to go fast in the tight stuff.

If I want to come out of a turn hot, I had better have this bike reved up.
Agree, you want the bike to be in that sweet spot of the rev range

I can't be down shifting in the turn because I really have to be smooth.
Agree, you should have selected the right gear before entering the corner, avoid shifting gears midcorner.

When I down shift coming into the turn I'm keeping the bike in its power band. To use the rear brake while I'm doing this is an over kill.
Disagree, use the brakes to slow the bike and downshift to keep the bike in the right gear for your speed not to brake the bike

From 6000 to 10000 rpm this is pretty heavy engin breaking for the rear tire.
Disagree, you bike has the same engine braking force indepedent of the revs - what is the compression ratio at 3000rpm and at 10,000rpm?

I will use the front brake if I deed to and this will light the brake light.
If I use the rear brake to set up my speed for the turn without constanly down shifiting I would then have to decide before I'm into the turn how many gears I have to drop to be ready to pull out.
Disagree, use both brakes to slow down for the corner and select the right gear before entering the corner.  Once you are finished braking you actually reapply the throttle to mildly accelerate or keep your speed constant into the corner, after the apex you are set and ready to power out

I don't like to think about it. It seems totaly natural to use engine braking for the back and the front if I need more.
Maybe I have spent to much time on two stroke dirt bikes. But if I don't keep it wound tight all the time I get lost as to what gear I need.
Of course I only do this when I'm wanting to go fast in the tight stuff.
Attend an advanced riding course that covers fast cornering and you will go even faster.  I used to ride motox on two stroke dirt bikes in my teens and dirt versus road techniques are soo different, let alone the differences between the 4 and 2 stroke motors  

Cheers
Conrad

funny, i have known some racers to still be on front brake (not as hard) while entering and leaning in the turn, not just in straights. all accelerate through the turn,  the engine gives alittle to the braking, what most of the writers/teachers are trying to point out isnt dont use engine brakeing, they are trying to get you to not RELY on it, as its not as effective as bakes.  the throttle is a speed control for accelerating, the brakes are speed control for slowing.   High compression engines and Valve control assemblies  (diesel engines and Jakebrakes)   are built with engine braking in mind, but only as an aid to the brakes.

QuoteFrom 6000 to 10000 rpm this is pretty heavy engin breaking for the rear tire.

I agree with this one. Because having the engine that high in RPM's does cause more of an effect than just puttering around at 2000.


If you want to see what I mean.

Go riding and stay in second gear.  Now slam it up to 10,000 and chop the throttle,  you're going to get tossed forward.

But if you only run it up to 4000 and cut the throttle, you will hardly feel it.

:dunno: