As the title reads, I am having a lot of trouble with my 05' F model 7.5k miles

Recently since i bough the bike i have been doing all sorts of the regular modifications including:
-kn lunchbox
-supertrapp slip on exhaust (cut the stock exhaust pipe down so i could mount it underneath the rear brake lever)
-rejet (20,65,145) 2.5 turns on mixture screws
-stainless steal hex float bowl screws
-float bowl gasket replace
-led running light and led gauge lights
-led strip blinkers( need to instal load resistors to eliminate all blinkers flashing together )
-new oil filter and oil
-replaced fuel lines and added a inline fuel filter to the primary on line between the tank and frame petcock

Once i got the bike reassembled i started it up and the idle was super rough at first bouncing around 2-3k and then it jumped to 5k with the popping through the air filter. I tried shutting it off and retesting a few more times and tried the trick of spraying wd40 on various intake joints(to intake manifold and to airbox) this had no change in idle(still at 5k). I know all the clamps are tightened all the way as i took my time with each step resembling to try and avoid any problems. The exhaust headers get very hot very quickly as the idle stays around 5k so i try not to leave the bike on longer then 30 seconds while i trouble shoot. The headers actually get glowing red pretty quickly, When this happens from what I've seen (only 3/4 times I've tested is that its either the left or right header never both)

From spending a few days reading all the information i could find on here(as i have used this site for all my projects on the bike, thank you to everyone) i always try to solve the problems before posting but i don't want to take any risk with possibly burning a exhaust valve as that seems very possible with my situation.

What i have tried/know its NOT:
1. loose/leak intake manifold
2. loose air filter conjunction
3. stuck choke, as i start with it 1/4 on and then drop it off immediately after start and the bike spits a little and "settles" at 4/5k rpm
4. loose throttle cable (snaps right back when twisted throttle)
5. i tried putting a plastic bag to cover the bottom half of the air filter to see if that would help reduce air flow and settle the seemingly lean condition but that didnt really do anything
6. plugged jet(any) they all are new and i just recently had the bike running normalish before rejet
7. bad gas, just finished running through a tank with additive to it and now it is running clean regular 87 gas
8. don't think its running "rich" as the exhaust smell test didnt produce the smell of gasoline 
9. idle screw is backed as far out as i can get it(when i was installing jets i backed the idle screw up to where it was just touching )

My suspected solution(s):
1. Remove inline fuel filter?(it is a paper filter as i read another post on here comparing the difference) and it was running fine with this before the rejet(yes more fuel needed now with bigger jets but going from a stock 17.5 to 20 idle jet could cause this big of a difference? filter is suppose to be rated for 500cc according to package at auto zone
2. Losen idle mixture screws (@ 2.5 right now) is it possible these could be stuck closed?
3. mixture is so lean that the excess oxygen is causing the high temp exhaust and glowing headers
also I'm located in Norfolk, Va which is at sea level ( i know this effects tuning and rejetting)
Sorry for the long post was just trying to get the most details as i could on here, kind of trying to avoid taking it to a shop and not really looking forward to a valve adjustment but ill try it if thats what y'all think is necessary.

thanks for any help/ opinions

First place I'd go is make sure the throttle cable is adjusted properly.  Idle screw may be all the way out but if the throttle cable is holding the butterfly valve open you'll get a high idle.

Doesn't take much to get it revved up that high.

Double check the routing of the cable and make sure it's plenty loose at the handlebar.  Remember, "loosening" the adjustment nut TIGHTENS the cable.


Fuel filter wouldn't be causing this issue.  If it was getting inadequate fuel flow it just wouldn't run.  Running high usually means it's getting excess fuel.
Running hot is usually an indicator of running lean, but lean condition alone isn't going to cause a cherry header.
That usually is indicative of ignition in the header or ignition while the exhaust valve is open.
It can even be attributed to an exhaust leak in some cases.

If you didn't mess with the timing I'd triple check exhaust valve clearances and make sure the header bolts are tight.

Quote from: Average_squid on January 13, 2017, 07:11:47 PM
-led strip blinkers( need to instal load resistors to eliminate all blinkers flashing together )

Actually this has nothing to do with the load resistors. You need to do the "diode mod" wherein you do a little rewiring of the dash turn signal indicator and insert two diodes on the power side of the wiring. It blinks both sides because the dash indicator bulb bridges left and right and conducts.

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Once i got the bike reassembled i started it up and the idle was super rough at first bouncing around 2-3k and then it jumped to 5k with the popping through the air filter.

If you were to start it with the choke (which you should have to, if it's cold, more in a minute) then besides the popping through the air filter, this is normal. It should start even if running a little rough for a few seconds and pretty quickly the idle should find its way to around 5K while the choke is on. And these bikes are notoriously cold-natured and take a long time to warm up so you may have to run it on choke for a minute or more before it will idle without the choke on. But since you don't have to start it with choke (more later), this indicates a completely different issue.

You won't really be able to evaluate the idle settings (speed, mixture) until you can get the bike FULLY warmed up (run it on the road for >10 minutes IME, more maybe with cold weather).

QuoteThe exhaust headers get very hot very quickly as the idle stays around 5k so i try not to leave the bike on longer then 30 seconds while i trouble shoot. The headers actually get glowing red pretty quickly, When this happens from what I've seen (only 3/4 times I've tested is that its either the left or right header never both)

...

Quote
3. stuck choke, as i start with it 1/4 on and then drop it off immediately after start and the bike spits a little and "settles" at 4/5k rpm

Actually to me this indicates your idle mixture must be way RICH and probably also idle speed setting way too high... or you have a stuck main needle, torn/wrecked rubber diaphragm in one or both carbs, bent needle, main needle not aligned correctly so it doesn't actually go into the jet, missing or otherwise misassembled main needle spring, etc.

If your bike will start cold on 1/4 choke and keep running with turning the choke off immediately then you are running on the main jet on a cold start. I would pull the top of the carbs apart immediately and verify the needle/spring/diaphragm assembly since this is far and away the most likely issue. Probably the cause of all of your problems.

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5. i tried putting a plastic bag to cover the bottom half of the air filter to see if that would help reduce air flow and settle the seemingly lean condition but that didnt really do anything

That lunchbox flows like 100x as much air as your bike needs at idle. You'd have to nearly completely block it to make a noticeable difference. The lunchbox probably flows 5x as much air as your bike needs at WOT and 11K rpms!

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6. plugged jet(any) they all are new and i just recently had the bike running normalish before rejet

This is why I say your issue is likely something gone slightly wrong on carb reassembly.

I have gotten the main needle just barely wrong where it doesn't go down into the jet more than once when putting the carbs together. You can easily see it by noticing that the slide is stuck up high when the bike is not running, just pull your air filter, open the throttle and take a look. My bet is this is your problem. Or you may have a gross vacuum issue with the diaphragm(s) so it pulls the slide up at idle, which it shouldn't, thus opening the main jet, or the spring/clip/spacer/etc is assembled wrong somehow causing it to stick. My bet is this is your problem. Good news is it's very easy to check and fix.

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1. Remove inline fuel filter?(it is a paper filter as i read another post on here comparing the difference) and it was running fine with this before the rejet(yes more fuel needed now with bigger jets but going from a stock 17.5 to 20 idle jet could cause this big of a difference? filter is suppose to be rated for 500cc according to package at auto zone

I could never make my bike run right with a paper fuel filter so I removed it, but others get them to work fine. You are correct that this totally won't affect idle condition and even if it did, in your case you can just switch to reserve and bypass it. And it would only manifest once the float bowls ran out of fuel which takes a few minutes at idle.

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2. Losen idle mixture screws (@ 2.5 right now) is it possible these could be stuck closed?

No, but it is possible (and likely) that the o-rings that seal the end of them are hard and flat and don't work anymore. Eventually I predict you are going to wind up replacing them. This is very difficult to do with the carbs on the bike, but possible, I've done it. FYI. Once you get your current problem sorted then you might wind up adding this to your list if your idle is inconsistent.

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3. mixture is so lean that the excess oxygen is causing the high temp exhaust and glowing headers

Probably not a lean mixture problem, but first fix the won't-idle problem (like I think, your main needle stuck/etc) and then consider the hot-exhaust issue. While you have the tank off messing with stuff take the hour it takes to check your valve clearances before you put it back together just to rule that out.

The Supertrapp muffler may have a whole lot more back pressure than the previous exhaust and that can reduce exhaust velocity which means the hot exhaust gases stay hotter in the pipe (can't expand/cool as quickly) and also stay in the pipe longer so the exhaust typically will run hotter. This may be the entire problem with the glowing exhaust. This is the first I've heard of a GS500 running a Supertrapp. If I were you, to rule this out either add a bunch of discs to the supertrapp or remove them altogether for testing. Or maybe temporarily stick the original muffler on just for testing if you can't stand the noise. Reduce the number of things you change at once so you can dial in the carbs first, then deal with exhaust.

BTW, shortening the exhaust will likely have a noticeable [negative] effect on low-end torque. And shortening it along with changing to a Supertrapp will worsen the increase in heat in the exhaust.

Good luck!

Thank you both for the responses.
1.I started off with the throttle cable and it didnt seem restrictively tight. But i went ahead and backed the idle adjustment screw all the way out essentially and readjusted both cables.
2.The exhaust header bolts are super rusty and didnt require much effort to remove surprisingly, I am going to replace these as they are far too rusted for me to feel comfortable putting them back in.
3. supertrapp muffler- when i bought the bike PO had already changed it over to this and it doesn't have any disk on the end, just straight open.
4. i am in the process of checking the valve clearances and will update later after
5. carb diaphragm- unfortunately i don't think this is the problem, when i removed the air filter i checked and these seat fine.

Is the fuel level good in the carbs
If its too low, you'd be lean as the dickens.
Cool.
Buddha.

just removed the spark plugs as i was preparing to check the valves and they are black! More sooty black then wet black and the ground electrode arm is a chalky white. this indicates a rich condition? or could this be caused from the testing gaskets with wd40?

EDIT: I didn't realize you were talking about the ground arm, I must have overlooked that.
If the ground arm and electrode are white its LEAN.


Your jetting seems about right, though.

Budda has the right idea.
I'd open the carbs up.  Check the float heights.  Float set too low won't allow enough fuel to be drawn through the jets.

Quote from: Average_squid on January 15, 2017, 02:36:49 PM
just removed the spark plugs as i was preparing to check the valves and they are black! More sooty black then wet black and the ground electrode arm is a chalky white. this indicates a rich condition? or could this be caused from the testing gaskets with wd40?

Where are they black? Where are they chalky white?

If the end of the electrode and insulator and ground strap are "chalky white" then it's running lean. Very lean. Even if the "ring" portion of the plug is sooty black, this is normal and will be the case pretty much all the time.

If the bike is running very rich then the end of the electrode, insulator, and the ground strap will be dark but not sooty black ... just dark, maybe brown. If those parts become sooty black then the bike won't run, it just won't fire consistently, then it will flood and they will come out damp and black.

in my experience again. I suppose I was wrong. Your bike sounds to me like it's running super lean according to the plugs, listen to Buddha and check the float levels. Can't imagine how it could be super lean and start cold with 1/4 choke.

Thought I should update this since the problem has been resolved. Thank you to everyone who had suggestions as i did just about everything except the valve adjustment.
I don't know exactly what was causing the problem so I just did it all
1. Replaced spark plugs, not sure how long ago PO did this and my local auto zone had them for $2 a pop
2. Removed inline fuel filter (well actually swapped it to reserve line and picked up a brass hose barb from lowes for like 1$ so now i don't have to remove the fuel lines from tank or petcock when i take the tank off. (just unscrew clamps on barb/inline filter)
3. pulled carbs inspected everything made sure all the jets were tightened properly. Checked float height best i could. Readjusted the idle mixture screw so it was just barley touching. inspected slides. 
4. removed the intake boots (connecting carbs to engine) gave those a good cleaning with wd40 and inspected for cracks, which there were none.
5. reinstalled the carbs and made sure the throttle cable wasn't too tight and checked choke cable function.
6. reinstalled kn lunchbox and double checked for a proper seal. 
7. removed stock exhaust header bolts as they were super rusty and a couple were actually loose enough i could unscrew by hand. picked up some replacements from lowes and a pack of fitting crush washers to eliminate this exhaust leak.

fired right up idle at 1.3k

Ill post something over in the projects area with all the mods I've done: including the gsxr pegs front and rear(13$), led blinkers all around w/resistors mod(26$), super fenderectamy(1$ for plate bracket i made), and katana 750 shock(35$). oh and the exhaust chopping cause why not (6$ for support bracket and pipe clamps)

happy riding
squid out.

Just be careful with using WD40 on rubber, as prolonged exposure can cause the rubber to deteriorate.

I'm glad the issue was resolved.  Wish I knew exactly what the issue was, but TBH the loose exhaust sounds like it was doing a lot of the damage.
A major exhaust leak at the engine will definitely cause excess heat.

Would be a good idea to check the exhaust valves for clearance and to see if they're burned up.


A fuel filter might not even be necessary.  Inside the tank is a filter element anyway, and putting it on the reserve line might be bad as fuel will just be sitting in the filter and may deteriorate the element.
Best place for a filter is between the petcock and carbs so BOTH lines are filtered and there's a constant flow through it.
It'll also be easier to access to change.

Quote from: Average_squid on January 23, 2017, 05:13:08 PM

3. Checked float height best i could. Readjusted the idle mixture screw so it was just barley touching. inspected slides. 

7. removed stock exhaust header bolts as they were super rusty and a couple were actually loose enough i could unscrew by hand. picked up some replacements from lowes and a pack of fitting crush washers to eliminate this exhaust leak.

fired right up idle at 1.3k

These are the only REASONABLE possibilities in my mind.

Now that I got the bike I'm working on started, it does what yours mentioned. It pops on the right side, I'm thinking it could possibly be an exhaust leak. I'll check that.

The float height is 13mm, carb angled where the float tang BARELY rests on the needle spring cap.'

Can you elaborate on the point above about the adjusting of the mix screw? I set it at 3 turns out - not sure where it should be.

Thanks, hope you can help me fix a similar situation GS500 2006.

Quote from: urbane on January 25, 2017, 12:04:00 AM

Quote from: Average_squid on January 23, 2017, 05:13:08 PM

3. Checked float height best i could. Readjusted the idle mixture screw so it was just barley touching. inspected slides. 

7. removed stock exhaust header bolts as they were super rusty and a couple were actually loose enough i could unscrew by hand. picked up some replacements from lowes and a pack of fitting crush washers to eliminate this exhaust leak.

fired right up idle at 1.3k

These are the only REASONABLE possibilities in my mind.

Now that I got the bike I'm working on started, it does what yours mentioned. It pops on the right side, I'm thinking it could possibly be an exhaust leak. I'll check that.

The float height is 13mm, carb angled where the float tang BARELY rests on the needle spring cap.'

Can you elaborate on the point above about the adjusting of the mix screw? I set it at 3 turns out - not sure where it should be.

Thanks, hope you can help me fix a similar situation GS500 2006.

i think i worded that wrong in regard to the "mix screw" part. i was referring to the long screw between the two carbs that has a white dial type piece on the end that can be used to set an idle level. I think you're referring to the air mixture screws on the bottom of each carb? if so i believe 3 turns out is pretty standard.
also have you tried to let it warm up level? not just on the side stand. i find if i put a piece of wood under the side stand(po removed center) to keep the bike level this helps eliminate the issue some more.

Since i added the kn lunchbox and rejet I've been having the backfire thru carb. although it didnt completely go away when i checked everything it is a lot less common. often i find that while the bike it warming up if i try to get it to idle under 2k the backfire is more frequent then when i adjust the choke to idle at 3k (keep in mind this is only when warming up to ride). after its nice and warm this issue is gone and i idle at 1.3-1.5k

Your idle mixture is lean.

Also it should high idle at more like 5k with choke on. Don't try to adjust the idle unless it's fully warmed up or you will be chasing your tail.

Or go ahead and ignore this input and continue to have running issues.

Quote from: mr72 on January 28, 2017, 10:26:52 AM
Your idle mixture is lean.

Also it should high idle at more like 5k with choke on. Don't try to adjust the idle unless it's fully warmed up or you will be chasing your tail.

Or go ahead and ignore this input and continue to have running issues.

Agreed!

Would you set this greater than the stock recommended 3 turns out MR72?

Quote from: Average_squid on January 27, 2017, 05:39:30 PM

Quote from: urbane on January 25, 2017, 12:04:00 AM

Quote from: Average_squid on January 23, 2017, 05:13:08 PM

3. Checked float height best i could. Readjusted the idle mixture screw so it was just barley touching. inspected slides. 

7. removed stock exhaust header bolts as they were super rusty and a couple were actually loose enough i could unscrew by hand. picked up some replacements from lowes and a pack of fitting crush washers to eliminate this exhaust leak.

fired right up idle at 1.3k

These are the only REASONABLE possibilities in my mind.

Now that I got the bike I'm working on started, it does what yours mentioned. It pops on the right side, I'm thinking it could possibly be an exhaust leak. I'll check that.

The float height is 13mm, carb angled where the float tang BARELY rests on the needle spring cap.'

Can you elaborate on the point above about the adjusting of the mix screw? I set it at 3 turns out - not sure where it should be.

Thanks, hope you can help me fix a similar situation GS500 2006.

i think i worded that wrong in regard to the "mix screw" part. i was referring to the long screw between the two carbs that has a white dial type piece on the end that can be used to set an idle level. I think you're referring to the air mixture screws on the bottom of each carb? if so i believe 3 turns out is pretty standard.
also have you tried to let it warm up level? not just on the side stand. i find if i put a piece of wood under the side stand(po removed center) to keep the bike level this helps eliminate the issue some more.

Since i added the kn lunchbox and rejet I've been having the backfire thru carb. although it didnt completely go away when i checked everything it is a lot less common. often i find that while the bike it warming up if i try to get it to idle under 2k the backfire is more frequent then when i adjust the choke to idle at 3k (keep in mind this is only when warming up to ride). after its nice and warm this issue is gone and i idle at 1.3-1.5k

That white one is the IDLE ADJUSTMENT SCREW. I had mine idling well when the butterflies were barely able to be seen through. Now hunting slowly falling revs.

Quote from: urbane on January 29, 2017, 11:04:34 PM
Would you set this greater than the stock recommended 3 turns out MR72?

Mine are 3.5 turns out. I figure that's the max I'd go without jetting up.