I cover my levers at all times, because it's just comfortable. Never once had an issue with panic grabbing in an emergency. The only control I don't cover 24/7 is my back brake because it's easy to accidentally be putting weight on it.

I say do what works for you.

I thought Rossi and most racers hang off to the inside of the turn, grazing your knee puck on the curve but having less angle on the bike - because that allows a steeper effecitve angle of lean - because its the CG that counts for centrifugal force but if you lean the bike further you'd hit hard parts and break traction.

I dunno though, I suck at riding hard (unless its in a straight line).

Cool.
Buddha.

Quote from: The Buddha on April 29, 2018, 06:13:39 AM
{snip}
Cool.
Buddha.

That's right.
It's not all about ground clearance, though.  The more vertical the bike is the more available traction there is from the tires.
That's useful knowledge for any riding situation.

Quote from: Watcher on April 28, 2018, 10:40:02 PM
Also, unexpected things happen at the track, too, unless you're racing solo.  Those motoGP guys seem capable of avoiding crashed out riders just fine and at much MUCH higher speeds than you typically see on the roadway.  They stand to benefit from a proper braking and avoidance technique as much as the average street rider.

This.

Even more unexpected things happen on the street. When I ride I'm always thinking about traffic around me: They're out to kill me. I can't count the times people have pulled out in front of me. Being able to react quickly has saved my life.

I admit to covering the levers most of the time. It's habit and also keeps me from having a "death grip" on the bars. One finger on the front brake is all I need to stop immediately. Two fingers means an instant stoppie. 

Quote from: alpo on April 28, 2018, 03:59:14 PM
Think about standing and trying to move quickly. Is it faster when your feet are flat, or when you are balancing on your toes? It's the same premise with riding on the balls of your feet. "Loading the pegs" is a well known practice and is easiest when using the balls of your feet. When the arches of your feet are on the pegs it is painful. Plus, putting the balls of your feet on the pegs allows you to press your heels onto the heel plate, which is essential to controlling the bike in corners.

Sorry but all that 'rationale' is quite misleading. Plenty of erroneous ideas going on here!
The actual point is that resting the balls of the feet on the pegs ADDS one more point of flexibility (the foot/toe joints) that can CAUSE instability.
When you ride, you don't MOVE your feet to help control the bike, you actually just PRESS, like you do with your knees against the tank. It's MUCH harder to press with the balls of your feet. Try it. Compare.

And what footwear are you wearing on your feet to make it "painful" to rest the arch of your foot?
Also, riders should have INSTANT access to the rear brake. Moving the foot in an emergency just adds potential instability JUST when you don't need it.
There's no correlation at all with locking up the rear brake. If you have problems with this position your back brake lever is set too high. Change that.

Quote from: Joolstacho on April 30, 2018, 04:19:32 PM
Also, riders should have INSTANT access to the rear brake. Moving the foot in an emergency just adds potential instability JUST when you don't need it.
There's no correlation at all with locking up the rear brake. If you have problems with this position your back brake lever is set too high. Change that.

You don't need the rear brake. "Instant access" is a guarantee of failure on the street unless you REALLY know how to modulate the rear brake. The majority of your stopping power is in the front brake.

Quote from: Joolstacho on April 30, 2018, 04:19:32 PM
The actual point is that resting the balls of the feet on the pegs ADDS one more point of flexibility (the foot/toe joints) that can CAUSE instability.
When you ride, you don't MOVE your feet to help control the bike, you actually just PRESS, like you do with your knees against the tank. It's MUCH harder to press with the balls of your feet. Try it. Compare.

Being on the balls of your feet is not the same as being on your toes, unless if you're speaking colloquially of "being on your toes", but being on your arches and being on the balls of your feet have the same amount of joints and flexibility, but you have more control when you're on the balls of your feet.

You don't really press on your footpegs to do anything.  Your footpegs are a support for you to use, not a control.  You're weight pressing down on one side of the bike or the other has incredibly little effect on anything, watch this.

https://youtu.be/JWuTcJcqAng?t=31s

Moving your body weight from side to side DOES have an effect on motorcycle dynamics, though, but that comes from changing your body position, not just pressing on the pegs.  Your whole body needs to move, and your whole body is more able to move when you're on the balls of your feet.
The whole "think about standing and trying to move quickly" concept IS the point here.  You are on the balls of your feet not because it increases your control over the bike, but it increases the control over your BODY and through this can improve motorcycle handling.

Quote from: Joolstacho on April 30, 2018, 04:19:32 PM
And what footwear are you wearing on your feet to make it "painful" to rest the arch of your foot?

A lot of "normal" footwear has inadequate arch support.  Maybe not pain, but I get more fatigue over time if I'm on my arches, especially if I'm wearing just my every day "duty-boots" or my moto-shoes.  A proper pair of motorcycle shoes/boots with rigid shanks will ultimately be more supportive when placed on a peg, arch or not.

Quote from: Joolstacho on April 30, 2018, 04:19:32 PM
Also, riders should have INSTANT access to the rear brake. Moving the foot in an emergency just adds potential instability JUST when you don't need it.
There's no correlation at all with locking up the rear brake. If you have problems with this position your back brake lever is set too high. Change that.

Riders have access to the rear brake just as quickly as they do the front brake.  If you are covering your rear I expect you to be also covering your front.  If you're not covering the brakes I expect you should be in a posture best suited to carrying on at speed.  Such a posture should be all four fingers around the throttle, left hand on the grip, knees against the tank, and on the balls of your feet.
Moving your foot isn't a source of instability.  You're locked onto the bike with your knees and you're sitting on the saddle, you're super stable in this position.  You could lift your feet completely off the pegs and still be stable in this position, but once it comes time to move your body position you're best able to do so if you're on the balls of your feet, whether that means counter-weighting, changing your seat position, hanging-off, whatever.


At the end of the day you can listen to me or not.  If you want to label me an armchair expert or a faceless nobody on the internet that's up to you, but I would hope my certification as a trainer has some gravity to it.
I don't teach dangerous techniques.  I have a career and a reputation to uphold.

Seems like some people in here need to watch Twist of the Wrist II...

Watcher is right.

I really appreciate this discussion. During my training class I was on a GROM and I was floored with how hard you could lean it in a turn.

Couple of comments specific only to me I guess:

1. if being on the balls of your feet puts your knee at an uncomfortable bend, then the real solution is to move the peg forward or sit further back on the seat, I think. I personally wouldn't mind if the peg was 1.5" forward and 1" lower because I have long legs and feel quite cramped on the bike as it is.

2. The terms "press the inside peg" or "press the inside handlebar" are more for training you to do weight transfer which causes you to naturally shift your body weight, not really literally to "press". You can't physically put pressure without weight shift. This is just a technical habit-builder kind of like any other physical mechanics training. IMHO.

3. I have a roundabout in my neighborhood that is unfortunately situated on sort of the sides of where a couple of hills come together making almost half of it off-camber. I find it very, very difficult to get the bike leaned enough to take that off-camber part of the turn at much more than walking speed because the tires really want to slip and more than once I've had to catch it. I can around that turn a lot faster in a car. Something to be said for four tires on the ground and multi-link suspension keeping a 9" contact patch flat on the ground.

4. The biggest thing keeping me from leaning more and taking ordinary road curves faster is uncertainty about the road surface. I know I can lean the bike and take turns much quicker but around here the twisty roads also have crummy surface with lots of patches and often have gravel or sand on the road. My fear is I'll get into a turn too fast and run into some gravel or a patch that upsets the suspension that I couldn't see when entering the turn.

Quote from: mr72 on May 01, 2018, 06:54:46 AM
I really appreciate this discussion. During my training class I was on a GROM and I was floored with how hard you could lean it in a turn.

I've taken to using our taller bikes (usually our KLX250SM) when I do curve demonstrations and I do them a little "hot" so the lean angle is really exaggerated.  I used to do the demo on whatever bike was easiest to get to in line, and occasionally we'd have a student with no cornering confidence that we have to really coach along.  It's not that difficult to coach technique, but it's really hard to coach confidence.  If the student doesn't trust their tires or the ability of the bike to lean, you can tell them to lean more or press harder all you want and they won't do it.
Since using the supermoto it seems the number of people who completely distrust the bike decreased.

Quote from: mr72 on May 01, 2018, 06:54:46 AM
2. The terms "press the inside peg" or "press the inside handlebar" are more for training you to do weight transfer which causes you to naturally shift your body weight, not really literally to "press". You can't physically put pressure without weight shift. This is just a technical habit-builder kind of like any other physical mechanics training. IMHO.

For "press the peg" I agree.  When we teach tight turns from a stop we suggest "pressing down on the outside peg" to help "weight the bike" and prevent it from tipping too far into the turn.  It works, but not from the pressure of your foot.  When students do this they invariably counter-weight with their upper body, and THAT is what balances the bike.

For "press the inside handlebar" I completely disagree.  That is what you're doing, you're pressing the inside handlebar.  You're not pressing it "down" to get the bike to lean, but you are pressing it "forward" along the steering axis and that steers the motorcycle.  It's the concept of counter-steering, you aren't turning the bars in the direction of the curve, you're pressing the bars in the direction of the curve.

Quote from: Watcher on May 01, 2018, 12:24:13 PM

For "press the peg" I agree.  ...

For "press the inside handlebar" I completely disagree. 

Fair enough. I was talking actually about the "press the inside handlebar" which applies to mountain biking, not road motorcycling. You do this on a mountain bike in a low-speed turn to improve front wheel traction by encouraging weight transfer to the corner of the bike where it needs it. It helps the edge knobs on the tire to bite and keep the bike from washing out.

Likewise on a mountain bike you always weight the outside pedal in a turn unless you plan to crash basically immediately. Having 80-90% of the combined vehicle/rider weight be in the rider really teaches you how to move your weight quite rapidly.

On a road bicycle it's even moreso, biggest difference is you have comparably infinite climbing traction on a road bike. On an MTB during climbs it's a constant balance between keeping enough weight on the front to steer and not wheelie while keeping enough weight on the rear to not spin out. Sometimes it's simply not possible and you have to find ways to coast for a beat or manual the bike.

Anyway, sorry for the sidebar. I was not talking specifically about motorcycles.

I wonder on a bike with much more solid on-center attitude if this "press the inside handlebar" is more necessary than on a GS? On my GS500, it takes no work at all to get it to lean. It's automatic. I think it's 40+ years of daily riding a two-wheel vehicle that makes it natural for me but it sure seems like my dad's Shadow takes a lot more effort to steer.

@Big Rich, freaking awesome, I never thought about an app! Lot's of the apps are not in the Aussie store :¬( but I found a very simple app called Bangle, which does exactly what I want. Went out straight away and a corner that seemed like 45 was actually 35.

@herennow, that chalk trick seems like a decent idea

@Watcher, yeah that weight on the wrong side is very weird. Having said that I will do that for a U-Turn, and sometimes I'll do it for a low speed tight roundabout.

@Joolstacho, I'm not fond of riding with others except for the gf, in fact I'm not fond of people  in general!

@Mr72, I learned years ago that cars can go round corners faster than a bike, which surprises most people because on the road they always back off due to the g forces.

I did to a rider training course about 35 years ago then we had a track day at Philip Island where I managed to grind down the rocker covers on my 650LS! while going round fast bends, I could practice counter steering, it's quite cool halfway round the bend I could just press the handlebar and control the lean angle, ease up a bit and let the bike stand up a tad.

I've been gradually getting my skills back. What I have found that has helped me a great deal recently is 'looking through the corner' I know we get told that all the time but after all these years I've actually been deliberately practising this and it's amazing how much easier it is. The other thing I've been practising lately is keeping my arms and shoulders relaxed to the point that when I shift my weight to take a corner I'm putting no weight at all on the bars just to get a feel for it, and using my weight shift instead this has also helped. But I feel that I am ready to be more aware of the actual lean angle.

I do use the balls of my feet naturally when cornering, when I'm on the highway I'll hook my heel onto the pegs and let my toes point down.

We have a marina just round the corner with a huge car park for cars with trailers, I went down there today to see if I could get permission to put some cones down and I found out that it's owned by the council not the marina. So I'll be ordering some mini cones and starting to practice my figure 8's.

I got the Ride Like A Pro DVD and now I'll be able to practice the cone work https://www.youtube.com/user/motorman857/videos

Quote from: mr72 on May 01, 2018, 12:40:53 PM
...
I wonder on a bike with much more solid on-center attitude if this "press the inside handlebar" is more necessary than on a GS? On my GS500, it takes no work at all to get it to lean. It's automatic. I think it's 40+ years of daily riding a two-wheel vehicle that makes it natural for me but it sure seems like my dad's Shadow takes a lot more effort to steer.

I think I've said this before, but my GS is much more lean-happy than my Blast. Both are relatively nimble, light bikes, but the GS takes much less effort to turn. When I turn on the Blast, I can feel the inside bar pushing back and I have to exert much more effort to keep the bike leaned over. And my dad's R75 is much the same.

Quote from: qcbaker on May 02, 2018, 05:10:27 AM
... my GS is much more lean-happy than my Blast. Both are relatively nimble, light bikes, but the GS takes much less effort to turn. When I turn on the Blast, I can feel the inside bar pushing back and I have to exert much more effort to keep the bike leaned over. And my dad's R75 is much the same.

That's interesting. I haven't spent much time riding anything besides my GS so I don't have any kind of good frame of reference. I wonder what it is about the GS that makes it so?

Quote from: mr72 on May 02, 2018, 05:54:23 AM
That's interesting. I haven't spent much time riding anything besides my GS so I don't have any kind of good frame of reference. I wonder what it is about the GS that makes it so?

I'm pretty sure it has to do with the wheelbases, tire sizes, steering head angle, rake/trail, etc. They're different bikes, so it follows that they would have different handling characteristics.

Well the Blast and the GS500 are very, very similar in wheelbase and rake/trail.

GS500:
Rake, trail   25° 30′, 95 mm (3.7 in)
Wheelbase   1,405 mm (55.3 in)

Blast:
Rake, trail   25.0° / 3.4 in (86 mm)
Wheelbase   55.0 in (1,400 mm)

The GS has half a degree steeper fork 5mm longer wheelbase and 9mm more trail.

I'd have to guess it's that half degree of head angle that makes the difference. Maybe the center of gravity of the bike+rider also plays a role? I am guessing the Blast is more upright than a GS, pegs more forward, etc. Weight is very similar, actually looks like the Buell is ~13 lb lighter than a GS500E.

Surprisingly similar specs on those bikes.

Quote from: mr72 on May 02, 2018, 06:57:02 AM
Well the Blast and the GS500 are very, very similar in wheelbase and rake/trail.

GS500:
Rake, trail   25° 30′, 95 mm (3.7 in)
Wheelbase   1,405 mm (55.3 in)

Blast:
Rake, trail   25.0° / 3.4 in (86 mm)
Wheelbase   55.0 in (1,400 mm)

The GS has half a degree steeper fork 5mm longer wheelbase and 9mm more trail.

I'd have to guess it's that half degree of head angle that makes the difference. Maybe the center of gravity of the bike+rider also plays a role? I am guessing the Blast is more upright than a GS, pegs more forward, etc. Weight is very similar, actually looks like the Buell is ~13 lb lighter than a GS500E.

Surprisingly similar specs on those bikes.

I'd never looked at the specs side-by side like that. Yeah, they're more similar on paper than I realized.

But you're correct in that the Blast is more upright, so that probably also contributes to the handling characteristics as well. The GS definitely feels closer to a sportbike and the Blast feels closer to a cruiser.

Quote from: user11235813 on May 02, 2018, 02:22:35 AM
@Watcher, yeah that weight on the wrong side is very weird. Having said that I will do that for a U-Turn, and sometimes I'll do it for a low speed tight roundabout.

Low speed is where you want to counter-weight.  If you're counter-steering, however, you shouldn't ever counter-weight; you're going fast enough that you're experiencing strong centripetal/centrifugal forces and counter-weighting is counter-productive.

Hey, that could be a mnemonic device!  When counter-steering counter-weighting is counter-productive!

Not very catchy, though...

Here's a good video regarding foot position. https://youtu.be/wC7PkQd7kLU

Picking up some cones tomorrow, might be a while before I manage this! https://youtu.be/H2fZAuDL5NQ

I don't know why he places his foot on the far outside of the peg when talking about the balls of his feet.  I'd say that is causing his slight instability in that instance, not which part of the food he is on, but it seems to me the "rear middle" and the "front middle" are otherwise minor biases of the same position.

He doesn't seem to consider the "rear middle" to be the arch, though, so I feel like we're more or less saying the same thing.

Great visual aid.  Saves me trying to make the same video, lol!