Quoteare all police bad? no ... but a few apples.....................

Hm... interesting. If I understand your logic, then I suppose that because you ride a bike, it is okay for me to assume that you are a drug-induced homicidal maniac?! I mean, by your suggestion, since you ride a bike and 1%'ers ride a bike, then I can assume all riders must be similar.

I doubt it. Just as I doubt you are anything like a 1%'er. There are bad cops, undoubtedly. There are also bad lawyers (most defense attorneys   ), bad doctors, bad teachers, bad bikers, bad priests...

Don't jump to conclusions (and if you weren't trying to make this point, then I appologize because I took your comment the wrong way).

On a side note, let me try and give you a quick, down-and-dirty idea of what it's like for me on patrol:

I'm driving around at 3 am. There's not too much going on. A partner has been dispatched to a domestic in progress with violence where alcohol is involved. A backup unit is headed his way. I'm thinking to myself hm... they're in for a load of fun.

I turn a corner, and I see a kid on a pocket bike riding down an alley headed towards the street. I roll my eyes. Moron, I think. It's three in the morning, and he's out on this toy riding around.

I decide to stop him to tell him to call a buddy with a pickup truck. He can put the bike on the truck and go home with nothing more than a warning. I don't see this situation as a big deal, but I'm not going to ignore it, either. He needs to know that it's both dangerous and illegal. I activate my lights, and he darts off away from me. Crud. I pick up speed so I can call in a better description of the bike and the rider, but before I know it, he's wrecked the bike and looks hurt.

I haven't even activated my siren yet. I wasn't intending on chasing him.

I call for assistance and an ambulance and get out with him. I check on his condition, but he's already dead. Massive head injury. I call for a supervisor and let communications know that the rider is dead.

Now I have to deal with his death, and I didn't even know him. It impacts me more than you might think. I begin to doubt myself. Should I have done something different?

I start to think about a lawsuit. I know it's coming. I again wonder if I should have just ignored it.

Now, think about this. I told you that I saw him, and when I tried to stop him, he ran away. However, what if he didn't see me. What if he was speeding up, and it only looked like he was running away? What if I saw him, looked the other way, and he still sped up and crashed. What if he died then? Do you honestly think that Joe Citizen is going to thank me for ignoring this kid on a bike? Don't think for a second that Joe Citizen would pass up an opportunity to rag on the police.

My point is simple. Don't blame the police for enforcing the law. It's our job. If you don't like the law, then approach your local Senator or Representative to change the law. Breaking the law, however, leaves me little choice in the matter. You break the law and I do my job.

I agree with the others in this post that are realistic enough to recognize where the blame ultimately lies: with the kid riding the bike. He made the choice to ride. He made the choice to wear no protective clothing. He made the choice to ride fast. He and only he. I can promise you that there wasn't someone sitting on the bike with him holding a gun to his un-helmeted head forcing him to ride that bike.

It's too easy in today's society to place the blame on someone else. Who the hell puts a hot coffee in their lap, spills it, and actually thinks that it's not going to be lava hot? If you haven't heard the story, supposedly someone sued McDonalds because they spilled hot coffee in their lap, it burned them, and they blamed McDonalds because the crew didn't warn this idiot that the coffee would be hot. Stupid, stupid, stupid...

I have my fireproof underwear on, and am waiting for the flames...

Ian

Quote from: ifonline
...

Ian

 :kiss:  

Ifonline:

No flames ... you are right on!

Somehow everything seems to be someone else's fault these days.  The only ones who win are the lawyers,

snapper:

I like your take on parenting.  People quite often say how well behaved our 3 year old is.  That's because we have rules.  Don't get me wrong .. she can misbehave but she also gets disciplined.  And by that I mean that we take away priveleges etc.  Think about this ... right now I am about 6 times her weight.  If I cannot control her now what will I do when she's 16?

"We live in a society where kids have no respect for anyone, including their parents. "  I think this was first quoted by Socrates.

All:

We will not know all of the circumstances how this happened.  Was this a hard working kid that was just hangin with his buddies and was in the wrong spot at the wrong time and excercised poor judgment?  Or was he brought up in poverty with no positive role models?  etc, etc.

I hope the cop does not get blamed for this as it seems he was doing his job.  If cops were to just leave everyone alone for fear of being sued then we have a much bigger problem.

Well said Ian.... VERY well said.

Brandiwine... here's another point of view the officer might have thought about:

3 am... Not only against the law to be riding the non-street legal "bike" but the time of night/morning... could it be stolen...Yet another reason on top of it being illegal to ride on the street-for pulling him over...  

As Ian said..He was breaking a law and the Police are there to enforce the law. He made a bad choice and paid for it with his life.... It sucks but he (the kid) is clearly to blame and not the Police for doing their Job.

Darwinism....

i'm not saying it wasn't the kids fault, but honestly, what kinda duck of a cop chases a kid on a 2 foot tall bike? he was in an alley at 3am, have you ever been in an alley at 3am? not usually too much going on, running was a dumb idea on a bike that only goes 40mph, that'd be like trying to get away on a honda metropolitan, but i don't remember the last time i've seen cops flip on their lights for some kids playing football in an alley, they just like people to pick on, and kids on bikes are easy targets

Quote from: tt_fourhave you ever been in an alley at 3am? not usually too much going on

You hang in different alleys.  In both Chicago and Seattle, I've seen plenty of crazy *&&% going on in alleys at all times of the night.

Quote from: tt_fourthey just like people to pick on, and kids on bikes are easy targets

BS.  Big time BS, for all of the reasons mentioned on this page of the thread.

  ifonline  
Right On. The Crap that is blamed on other people these days is unbelivible.
I burnt m self W/ Your Coffee,I did not know it was hot.  
I am Fat I Did not know McDonalds was bad for me its your fault

my gs is close enough to a pocket bike for me

Ah, crap, why do you always have to say it...do the re-search before you go bustin' up on 78 year ol' ladies at Mcdoogies, Bustem. In the court case it was found that "MickyD" kept the coffee above temperature safe to drink. The woman received third degree burns over 20% of her body. She required full-thickness grafts to her legs and her buttocks and she was willing to settle the case for what amounted to the medical bills. "M" declined to settle so it went to court. Read about the case in full before you go choppin' on somebody man. There's a lot more to it than that, but basically i'm sayin' everthin' ya see ain't everthin' ya see. Not bustin' on you, 'cause I love the baby G and the G forum.

C.......

Quote from: Jared
Brandiwine... here's another point of view the officer might have thought about:

3 am... Not only against the law to be riding the non-street legal "bike" but the time of night/morning... could it be stolen...Yet another reason on top of it being illegal to ride on the street-for pulling him over...  


Darwinism....

I'm definately all for Darwinism.  I would not drink the water from the gene pool.  But that's a whole other tangent.  

Question: Would you say the cop was picking on you're kid if (s)he gave them a ticket for riding their bicycle on the sidewalk...because that's illegal.  What about if you got a ticket for riding your bicycle with your kid on the sidewalk or for not putting both feet down and coming to a complete stop at a stop sign in your neighborhood?

There theoritically is no difference in the two.  If a law is a law then everything is black and white; no exceptions.

The point you made about the cop "maybe" thinking that it's a good reason to question this kid because the bike may be stolen sounds like profiling to me.  My GS probably looks more like a stolen bike than that pocket rocket did.  But I'm just pulling that one out of the same hole you did.   :dunno:

I'm definately not for living my life in boxes built by people who don't generally have to follow the rules anyway.  Can someone spot me a couple hundred million so I can live in Germany and drive on the Autobaun part of the year, live in London and take the tube everywhere another part of the year, and finally live in Amsterdam among real liberals the last part of the year?  We're too uptight and too much in everyone else's business here in America.  And before someone tell's me to get out.....believe me I wanna but the Queen won't let me stay more than 6 months at a time.  

QuoteDon't blame the police for enforcing the law. It's our job

Yes, i understand what your putting across, My father was Miami/Dade officer for 27 years.  However, Officers like Civies are Human. (dont take this the wrong way, its what i have seen with my own eyes)  Some Humans are assholes. to make matters worse, you have assholes with badges and authority. A badge doesnt make one Correct. (without being there NO ONE can say, Your hypothetical of what you might Typicaly encounter has just as much validity as the opposite end of the spectrum.)  Ive been stroked for wreckless driving  for an endo i didnt plan, but because he wanted to split hairs on Terminology and i wasnt about to admit to "Performing a wheelie"  he went for the highest penalty he could. this included the use of plastic cuffs and sitting in back seat for 10 mins.   Now, judge looks my record over,  and its not great, but nothing pointing to wreckless tendicies. Court fines 157$. no convict, no points. ive also had my Bike gone over with fine tooth comb 3x in 2 weeks by same officer. this made me late for work all 3 times.   me and a friend cruiseing in his car, not speeding or anything,  we got pulled over cuz 1 of the 2 tag lights were flickering.  Both our ID's run, clean, tag, clean but the officer wants to search the car.  he said NO. in under 2 mins 4 units slide up, we end up in cuffs, car gets torn apart, dog gets brought in and guess what, nothing, we dont drink, we dont do drugs. no knives or guns. but the first officer finds my pruning shears in thier belt holster in the glove box and claims he could book us both for a CW charge.   after 40 mins of BS. he says to get the light checked and have a nice night.  HOW do you Fight this?
" Well sarge, came across the gents traveling blah blah, and when i seen the light flickering, i thoght i would let them know, upon approaching i was certain i smelled alcohal, but none was appearnt, i asked if to search the vehicle and they acted as if they where hiding something yadda yadda. "

Ive lived through it, ive seen it happen, and heard it from other LEO's mouths.   the common phrase "Creative Writing" seems to come up, and as a Officer (expert whittness) thier Opinion is addmisable and carries fair weight over a Civilian.   Many cops do a job i could not, i respect that. I dont respect assholes

ok flame done.

Profiling... If more crimes happen at night (My motorcycle was stolen betwen 1 and 5 am...) -is it profiling or just smart police work?? No it sounds more like a reasonable suspicion at that time of night. People will steal just about anything...

ANYWAY....

The part about "My kid "( Don't have any-Can't have them as a result of cancer ..)  getting a ticket for riding on the sidewalk etc-- if it was illegal I'd make sure he never did it again. Would "my kid"  have run from the police? Hell no-which is the point here......he'd have me to answer to later-and I think I would have hopefully raised him well enough that he wouldn't run.

Yep opinions are like assholes...everyone has one.


I own my actions and words...(good or bad..).

QuoteAh, crap, why do you always have to say it...do the re-search before you go bustin' up on 78 year ol' ladies at Mcdoogies, Bustem. In the court case it was found that "MickyD" kept the coffee above temperature safe to drink. The woman received third degree burns over 20% of her body. She required full-thickness grafts to her legs and her buttocks and she was willing to settle the case for what amounted to the medical bills. "M" declined to settle so it went to court. Read about the case in full before you go choppin' on somebody man. There's a lot more to it than that, but basically i'm sayin' everthin' ya see ain't everthin' ya see. Not bustin' on you, 'cause I love the baby G and the G forum.

Quoteand always look to the facts before rendering your decision about any publicized case.

Hmmm... looks like I was not on the up and up of the facts of this case,
cernunos you were right it was an older women and they kept there coffee above temps.
But it was still coffee, I am sitting back and thinking. I understand that there coffee is too hot and that they have still not fixed it.
Was She At Fault,For trying to prepare her coffee the way she did . Yes

QuoteAfter receiving the order, the grandson pulled his car forward and
stopped momentarily so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her
coffee. (Critics of civil justice, who have pounced on this case, often
charge that Liebeck was driving the car or that the vehicle was in
motion when she spilled the coffee; neither is true.)  Liebeck placed
the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from
the cup. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled
into her lap.

Now I agree that I was not aware of all the facts,but I am still to the point that she was at fault for more then the 20% the Judge said.

http://www.lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

Quote from: tt_fouri'm not saying it wasn't the kids fault, but honestly, what kinda duck of a cop chases a kid on a 2 foot tall bike?

Not to be rude, but a 19yr old boy doesn't usually look like a "kid on a bike" but rather a grown person on a bike. I see lots of teens (as I work at an Environmental Ed center), and believe me, a lot of them look like they could be in college or older. Add the fact that it was pitch black in an alley... :dunno:  "kid on a bike" doesn't fit.

Quote from: tt_fourhe was in an alley at 3am, have you ever been in an alley at 3am?

only when drunk, puking my brains out... and all I remember was the stench of puke and piss mixing in the humid summer night air.  :mrgreen:

Ian,
Excellent point.  Will we ever know what the officers point of view was that night?  Probably not.   It well could have gone down just the way you say.

And 500rider... exactly my point.  Thing is there are a lot of folks out there doing a GREAT JOB!  

My rating system for kids being, ah, well behaved (I guess thats the term I want to use...) is.. Do other responsible adults make comments such as "Your kids were so well behaved.  How do you do it?"  You're kids are never going to be as well behaved for you as they will for someone else.  If they are golden with others they you must be doing something.  If they are terrors well.. maybe more work is required.  

To give an example.. I have a 7 yr old (thats my estimate of his age) that rides his bicycle around the neighborhood.  He actually torments me while I am working in my yard.  NICE!  He is FREAKING 7!  He is rude and obnoxious!!  Generally kids flock to me (have no idea why- it just happens)... so this is a whole new experience.  Little twit... makes me want to throw rocks.  (Now who isn't being an adult!!   :mrgreen:  )


My City has just made pocket bikes illegal for road use.  Now I haven't read the whole article myself, but that was the message I had on my voice mail this am.
I say woot woot!

Now lets get some tracks for these bikes so we can ALL GO PLAY!

OK here is another point.. who the hell tries to make a getaway on a mini bike... cant you run faster than that...  :lol:
Cool.
Srinath.

I have no flame, but look at whole post please... my whole point was sytem has changed... police would always win he said cases before but now things have changed... TOOOOOO DAM. MANY OFFICERS ARE BEING A>>WIPES. Especially when it comes to bikes. Look on this forum for the stories... one was mentioned above.

"are all police bad? no ... but a few apples..................... "

the part you quoted was saying that those that abuse their job and privilages of rank and position have turned the system on it's ear... SOOOOO MANY of us have experienced it that we believe the defendant not the police officer.... i have been pulled over twice... and twice it was BS.

As for all the WONDERFUL law enforcement officers doing their job with wisdom, discression and common since   my hat's off to you. I THANK YOU....

BUT IN THIS CASE AS MANY... i stand by my original opinion and say it was both thier faults...

with the data we have present the only way to say that they both are at fault is to assume large amounts of data.  let's look at what we know.  we know there was a 19yr old kid on a pocket bike.  we know this took place around 3am.  we know he had no gear on.  we know he wipped out and died.  he may have been chased, he may have not seen the cop and split his head on his own.  to blame the cop partly is to assume correlation between the cop's actions and what happened to the kid.  based upon the evidence at hand, based upon the fact that we don't know what agenda the cop had, how long the "persuit" was, what speeds were attained, or what actions the police were taking when trying to stop this man, we cannot assume the cop is at fault.  to say the cop is at fault is to presuppose a large amount of information and seems to be based off a general distrust of police officers and nothing more.  going with the facts at hand, the police are free and clear of this.

You don't run if you're not doing something wrong.

I feel sorry for the kid and his family.  Most of the time you tend to mature and grow out of adolescent behavior, so he didn't deserve his fate.  But, it was his choice to gamble with his life.  Sooner or later the house always wins.

Saying the Cop has any responsibility is irresponsible.  If you catch a murderer, is it their fault, or yours for catching them?

Quote from: nisus1You don't run if you're not doing something wrong.

Amen