Magna Woes Continued

[tmckay]

In reference to

http://www.gstwins.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9826

For anyone that has been through this, I just finished setting up Srinath's magic on-board carb cleaning setup on the Magna 750 I bought.  It will work, it will work, it will work, it will....

Bought the Yamaha carb cleaner, used the acid container (well rinsed and dried) from the replacement battery to hold the mixture.  The bottle had a nozzle that fit inside 1/4 fuel line; secured that with duct tape.  I connected said apparatus to the main fuel intake for the carbs (after the pump, filter, etc etc). with a hose-joiner fitting (what are those called?)  Strapped the container to the mirror, as high as possible for gravity's sake.

I wasn't sure if it would flow, so I drained the carbs before I started and opened up the drains after it was hooked up.  Then I refilled the container.

I wasn't sure how much I needed to fill the carbs, or how much force I needed to flow uphill (on the V45 four, some of the fuel lines actually travel up!)  In the end I mixed up 16 oz (1/2 quart) of the 3:1 gas/cleaner mixture.  I figure 4-6 ounces is still in the bottle supplying pressure, an ounce or two spilled, and I drained a few ounces in the middle.  That  leaves a couple ounces per carb in the bike (with a little in the hoses in between).

Comments?  Srinath, did I do a miracle?  The guy at the bike shop was skeptical that it would work, but I want to prove him wrong.

Shake shake shake, shake shake shake, shake your Magna.

Trev

[Gisser]

I, too, am skeptical as to whether this method will solve your problem.  It sounded to me like the Magna's pilot circuits are blocked, and it would be miraculous if this Yama-cleaner is able to penetrate the blockage without the aid of fine gauge wire, aerosol, or compressed air.  No harm in trying the easy way first, but what do they say about   genius?  Ninety-nine percent persperation.  

[The Buddha]

It should work... I do the same thing on many of mine. Rust or other solid dirt is what it will leave behind... I mean in case you have solid particles clogging up a jet (pilot or other mix screw hole) which have been crammed in there by a mecahnical means... (not ever possible if the bike was running and left to sit... , a botched up cleaning job is the only way that can happen) Other than that It will clean it...
Cool.
Srinath.

[tmckay]

I don't believe it was touched after it was parked.

Rust could be a problem I suppose.  The main tank is pretty rusty, hard to see in the secondary but I can see some rust in the throat (not as bad as the primary).  There is a fuel filter on the bike, but I suppose small amounts of rust could have made it through.

Although, like Srinath suggested, if it wasn't crammed in the jets then it should just be sitting on surfaces.  Unless the jets themselves rusted internally.

Srinath, one more question.  Is there any point in holding the throttle open when I shake it, or even leaving it taped open?  That makes the jets rise, correct?  Would that help?

Thanks.

[The Buddha]

Jets cant really rust, they are brass, passages in the carbs are aluminum and the mix screw OK I think its stainless steel.
Throttle only opens butterflies... doesn't help when shaking.
Cool.
Srinath.

[tmckay]

I still have a problem, but the short news is "It worked!"  I am a true believer!  Srinath, you are the man.

When I drained the carbs, the mixture came out greenish-black instead of the original light golden color.  Amazing.  Rinsed once.

When I ran it the first time, the throttle still killed the motor.  I shut it off, and figured I had nothing to lose by cranking the idle-adjust screw around. This is where I messed up because I don't remember where it was set.

Turned the bike back with the choke and grabbed a big handful of throttle and it revved like nobody's business.  Thanks Srinath!

Trouble is, it will not idle without the choke (but I can start it without the choke easily).  Is this just the idle adjust screw that I messed with, or something else?  I don't have anything to go on because it didn't run at all before without the choke Any suggestions?

I have no problem admitting my inexperience: that is why I tackled the Magna in the first place  

Thanks,

Trev

[The Buddha]

OK then... maybe soak it again... greenish black = water, rust and old gas. The green... is gas breaking down and turning back into a dinosaur  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: . Clear or semi clear gooish... like vaseline = clean.
Cool.
Srinath.

[tmckay]

Wow, going for round three.  I just drained the carbs again and although it was a little lighter than the first round, it was still a beautiful translucent green  

I figure the carbs haven't been cleaned for the whole 22 years.  As long as it was running... Nobody bothered.

Srinath, have you done multiple applications like this?  If so, how many max?  Just curious.  I will still believe this works until the stuff comes out clean and the bike doesn't run

Trev

PS  After my initial success with throttle response, it went back to not working again.  I figure it was marginal, just enough to work a little.

[The Buddha]

OK still green... good... must be filthy... never have had to do it more than 1 time, butI filled it in my 900 eli and let it sit for 2 years or so... it dried up and the internals were left gooey and soapy... Of course once that all got removed it was clean. BTW this will clean the float bowls and everthitng in that area... agreed that is 90% of the carbs... There is still the slides that could be stuck in there... making slides not rise in 1 or more crabs, and that will give you beautiful idle, and not run on throttle.... so... I usually take the carbs off and soak it in the stuff in a trough after that happens. You can I thing take off the tops and pull the slides out and clean the insides with this and slides as well and then back in.
Cool.
Srinath.

[Rema1000]

If it starts without choke, then it's plenty rich... but if it won't idle without choke, then it sounds like maybe the idle is set too low.

[tmckay]

If it starts without choke, then it's plenty rich... but if it won't idle without choke, then it sounds like maybe the idle is set too low.

It started without the choke only after I had cleaned it and the engine was really warm.  By next morning, it was back to only running with the choke.

Yeah, the idle speed may be set too low but as it is it won't idle even with me holding the throttle open (stuck my hand up in the engine, all the idle screw does on this bike is hold the throttle open anyway.  Same on all bikes?)

It seems most likely to me that the jets are still semi-clogged and when I open the throttle I am leaning out and stalling.  With the throttle closed and the choke on, the vacuum is sucking enough fuel through the clogged jets to run.

Trev

[tmckay]

Update.  After the 3rd cleaning cycle, I still got green out.

More troubling, I can only fill one of the carburetors now.  Before, they all filled without a problem with this method.  I reconnected the lines to the fuel pump and tried to start it, same thing.  One of the 2 carbs that is first to get fuel will fill, the others won't.

Maybe I loosened up some gunk and clogged the fuel lines.  Trouble is, the line connections to the carbs are not very accessible (now I understand why there is a joint in the main line just before the carbs, so you can pull the carbs hoses and all from the bike).  I'm not sure I can get to them to check them.

Am I out of options?  I think I need to pull the carbs, much as I have been trying to avoid it.

Trev

[The Buddha]

Pulling the barbs...ok you might have to, however how did you fill all 4 before but now only 1 want to fill... Line kinked, how about removing fuel lines and using a syringe to fill the carbs. I can imagine how complicated the damn thing is... I hate V twins and V 4's for that precise reason. My vulcan is a rotten nightmare to yank its carbs... but very very luckily, I have never had to, and now its sold... :mrgreen:  Cleaned it with this stuff, and sprayed silicone outside every month or so, and never had a problem... it was rich with stock jetting...
Cool.
Srinath.

[tmckay]

Yeah, I think I will try to get to the lines.  If I can reach them to get them off, then I can probably also clear them.  Hooking a syringe to the fuel intake is going to present the same problem, which is simply getting my hand in there

BTW, a guy at a bike shop told me if the rubber rings were old where the carb attaches to the engine intake, they would shrink when I disconnnected them.  Any experience with that?  Anyway to swell them again if they do?

Trev

[The Buddha]

O rings dont actually shrink In my experience, they will crack and disintegrate if old and bad.
Cool.
Srinath.

[tmckay]

Well, I pulled the carbs.  THAT was not easy.  Just enough clearance, struggled for hours and then all of a sudden turned it just so... Out they came!

Anyway, into carb #1.  Everything looks pretty good; the formula was working I think.  Disconnected half of the fuel lines and blew through them, seemed clear.  Haven't opened up 2-4 yet.

Now I am wondering if maybe the float valve needles just got stuck, and that is why they would not fill.

Anyway....Srinath, about soaking the assembly in a vat.  Do I really submerge the ENTIRE assembly?  Air chamber, throttle springs, the works?  Just drop the whole block in.  How do I dry it if I do this?  What about rubber/plastic parts?

There are a lot of small channels (and the starter jets, which don't come out) that I would like to clean, seems like submersion is the best bet.

Thanks,

Trev

[The Buddha]

Yes submersion is the best... and you can run it much more dilute than 1:3, and use other carb cleaner as well in addition to this ... I usually find a container that is just the right size (planters trough works for I-4 carbs, and an old pressure cooker for the GS'es... but find the right container, and drop it in, and gas it and swirl it when ever you can ... then drying... who cares, OK fine sun will take care of it... usually... and a little shaking and inverting... Just take it off and let it sit for a hour in the sun...
Cool.
Srinath.

[Blueknyt]

use other carb cleaner as well

dont use the spray can carb cleaner on the slide/Diaphram,  most of them contain somthing that distorts the Diaphram (alcohal i think) once that happens, they dont like going back in straight, and never seem to work properly.  play it safe with those, remove them first, then use what you wish.

[tmckay]

Blueknyt,

 Thanks for the tip.  I think I am going to pull all the removable parts (floats, jets, etc) and clean them separately.  Then I'll drop the carb assembly in.  I got some duct tape residue on one of the diaphragms when I took the top off trying to make more room; I taped over it to keep stuff from falling in (in hindsight, not necessary and a bad idea).

** edit ** Hmm, this must be what the Magna calls "plates".  I haven't taken my GS apart before, but the slide controls air/fuel mixture flow into the cylinder, yes?  On the Magna, they are round plates inside the throat on a pivot.

BTW, what exactly is the "slide"?  Maybe Magna parlance is different than the GS500.  I haven't found anything in there that Clymer calls a slide

Thanks,

Trev

[The Buddha]

That round plate on a pivot is called butterfly... why...  
The slides are the things that go up and down, and seem to have no cable or anyhting hooked to them to get them moving... how do they move...  :lol:
The tops of the slides are made of rubber, and are called diaphragms... evidently these will coms apart from the slides... I just recently figured out how and managed to replace a couple on srileo's bike.
They will swell like Bluknyt said if you use spray carb cleaner that has acetone/MEK in it... smells like automotove paint, and feels awfully cool to touch... I dry them a bit and they shrink back... and if you still have it in the carb... I guess you could end up with the thing comming off the slide... but use the liquid carb cleaner... That should have a good concoction of chemicals going... anyway duct tape residue should keep that carb from running quite effectively...
Cool.
Srinath.