freaking bike won't start!!

[Kerry]

OK, review complete!  (I'm afraid it's not gonna be pretty....)

You first reported a problem on August 8th, in the idle problem...please help thread.  3 different people mentioned the possibility of dirty carbs.  I wrote 3 posts myself with information on HOW to clean your carbs.  You never really gave any final feedback; just kinda disappeared from the thread about halfway through...  :dunno:

You created the are all sparks plug the same? thread on August 11th.  The long and the short of that one was that after you changed your spark plugs "weird stuff started happening".  Correct action at this point = Put the old ones back in!  This thread just kinda died too....  :dunno:


In joerocker's My idle problem a little different, dies when stopping thread you asked some questions about mixture screws, what size of tubing is needed to check your float height, etc.  At one point I said ...

Um, have the carbs ever been cleaned? A good cleaning can resolve a multitude of ills.

... and in my next post I included plenty of motivation (I thought) for cleaning ones carbs when weird problems arise.  But by then you had dropped from the thread again.   :dunno:  joerocker wrapped up his topic with "I'll ______ and let you know what happens."  Fair enough.


August 17th.  You created yet another thread, called freaking bike won't start!!  (THIS thread.)  There are still a few loose ends here, too:

* You said you were going to buy some jumper cables and try to jump start the bike from your car.  Results?

* You shorted the starter relay and the motor turned, but I'm still not sure your starter relay is up-to-snuff.  When you hit the Start button does the motor turn like when you shorted it, or do you just hear a click?  You asked about the symptoms of a faulty starter relay and I gave you step-by-step, but you didn't say whether you tried to follow the steps with a tester of any kind or what the results were.  (BTW, if the starter motor turns

when you hit the Start button then forget about the starter relay - it works!)[/list:u]It's NOT my goal to make you feel bad.  Your next-to-last-post was nice and informative, and showed that you tried some good tests.  But from my point of view there are several holes that I can't fill myself since I'm not there.  You have asked for ideas, you have received quite a few, you've tried some things, but you haven't always given enough feedback to help us decide which paths should be abandoned and which ones are worth pursuing.  :dunno:

Maybe you could go through THIS post and comment on all of the outstanding items I've mentioned?

PS - There's also an open question for you in the stuck float height?? thread, which you created on August 20th.  (See my 2nd post.)

[Frost]

wow...i guess i did leave a lot of loose ends...

well...first of all...my carbs were cleaned and synced at a shop a few months ago and i dumped carb cleaner into the gas tank a few days before my bike died down...

for the sparks plug...i threw the old ones out...i'm stupid i know...but i just went to the shop and got some new ones with the proper gap...so i'll plug them in and we'll see what happens...

for the float height...i didn't really understood how to check it until last night when i finally had a chance to work on my bike...but the tubings i got was too big...so i gotta go out to get some proper size to check it then...

i bought jumper cables to boost it up...and it starts up just like if i use the electrical starter on the bike...and when i short the relay...it's the same as if i just hit the starter button...so i guess it's not the starter realy that's broken...

i read through all those threads and now i've decided to take the carbs apart...mind as well...since i wanna learn how to take it apart so that i can sync and clean and perhaps even jet it in the future...

i really appreciate all the help you guys have given me...and i didn't ignore any of them...i just missed points here and there so that's why there are so many loose ends...

oh...special thanks to Kerry for being so generous in helping a fellow Gs rider...

[Kerry]

i dumped carb cleaner into the gas tank a few days before my bike died down...

Is there any chance that you put way too much in?  (Probably not; just asking.)  Some of those additive bottles say they will treat 20 gallons but then tell you to dump the whole thing in, no matter what size your tank is.

If you rode the bike at all during those "few days" then you're probably OK.  But if we run out of other ideas you might want to drain the entire tank into a gas can and put fresh fuel in.  (And then, AFTER we get the bike running, dump part of the gas can back in with each fillup until it's gone.)

[...]i just went to the shop and got some new [plugs] with the proper gap...so i'll plug them in and we'll see what happens...

Cool.

TIP: Make one change at a time and come up with a system for tracking the results.  In other words, don't clean the carbs AND change the plugs before you fire up the bike next time.  Clean the carbs, try it, note any changes.  Change the plugs, try it, note any changes.  And so on.

for the float height[...]i gotta go out to get some proper size [tubing] to check it then...

Sounds good. Be sure to put the bike on the centerstand when you check the float height, or one side will register low and the other will register high.

i bought jumper cables to boost it up...and it starts up just like if i use the electrical starter on the bike...and when i short the relay...it's the same as if i just hit the starter button...so i guess it's not the starter realy that's broken...

Sorry, I'm still confused on this one.

1) You said "it starts up

just like if I use the electrical starter on the bike".  You still use the Start button when the jumper cables are attached, right?

2) When you short the relay you have bypassed it, so you can't tell what kind of shape it's in.  But if the motor turns over when you push the Start button (instead of shorting the relay) then you know the relay is working OK.[/list:u]

i've decided to take the carbs apart [...] i wanna learn how to take it apart so that i can sync and clean and perhaps even jet it in the future

Good for you!  Like I've probably said before, there are a lot of individual steps involved, but none of them are what I would call difficult.

* Take it one step at a time with a Haynes or Clymer manual (or

miket's How To).
* Do one carb at a time
* Keep the parts organized
* Clean the smithereens out of all the METAL parts that come out of there.[/list:u]Oh, and yell if you get stuck!

[Frost]

hey Kerry...thanks again...

1.) nope...didn't dump too much in...and this is already the 3rd tank after i dumped carb clearner in anyways...

2.) thanks for the tip...but i changed the plugs a week before i cleaned the carbs...trying to fix my idle problem...but then worse lead to worse and then now this...

3.) float height...still gotta get back on this one...

4.) yes i use the start button when i use jumper cables...it's just a source of electricity right??...the motor does turn over when i press start button...so i doubt that it's the starter fault...

5.) taking carbs apart were much easier than i thought it would be...and i guess even if it didn't work...it was still a great experience to finally take something on my bike apart...


so finally...i cleaned carbs....attached all the hoses together...and tried to start it up...and...NOPE!...still won't start up...sigh...

[The Buddha]

OK Jumper cables and starter relay and start button...and by passin the relay...
Somwhere in there is the answer...
Bad battery... or bad starter relay...
Jump with car and hit starter and it turns over ... means battery or starter relay is bad... Yup a starte relay eats up so much juice... It will eventually burn up... but in the mean time you will run crazy trying to find it...
No jump...just with Bike's battery and by pass the starter relay and it turns over = starter relay is bad...
Take the plugs out,and start the bikt with bikes battery using the strat button... and if the starter spins and cylinders spit gasoline... bingo... hydrolock... 1 problem... can cause all the above symptoms.
Cool.
Srinath.

[billlang675]

Just bought a NEW GS500F 8/21/04.  Was rideing around to get the feel of the bike, when the engine started to lose power and stutter like it was running out of gas. I was going @ 65mph at the time at @ 4800RPM in 6th gear. Slowed the bike down to pull to the side of the highway. When I pulled in the clutch, the bike cut-out and I was unable to restart. Fuel tank was 3/4 full, so OK there. Was able to restart with the choke wide open and ride in 3rd gear for about 150 yards and the bike would do the same thing. Tryed starting the bike by catching in gear, but was unable to. I could hear the battery geting weaker and weaker after about 4 or 5 of these little journeys. At this point I got off and checked the wireing connectors I could get to. All looked alright with good connections. I then turned the fuel petcock to the pr (prime postion) and the bike started right up and rode just as though it never happened. Was about 4 miles from the dealer so rode back there, and expalned it to the mechanic. Of course it started in there lot with the petcoke in ON postion, so mechanic took it for a ride under the same conditions and thank goodness it cut-out on him and  he switched to reserve postion and it kicked right in. It was almost closing time at the dealership so I left it there till Monday and they will work on it. Mechanic things it is in the petcoke, loose part or messed up diapharm. Will repost when they find solution.  :dunno:

[Kerry]

1 & 2) OK, sounds good.

3) I'm looking forward to the results of the float height check.  (I'm not expecting miracles here, but if nothing else we can keep building up that pile of facts.)

4) So, let me get this straight.  When you push on the Start button the motor turns over - whether or not you use jumper cables attached to a car battery?  If that's true then the whole starter motor system sounds fine to me.  You mentioned before that you get a nice blue spark.  I assume that you get this spark when the Start button is pushed down and the starter motor is turning the engine over.  (Since the engine never "catches" and runs, that should be the only possible time.)

5) That's pretty much how I felt - both before and after taking the carbs apart the first time.

BEFORE: "I'm gonna mess something up ... I just know it!   "

AFTER: "Hey, that wasn't so bad after all!  "[/list:u](You DID turn the petcock under the tank back ON, right?  I'm only asking because _I_ have forgotten before.   )

============================================

If you don't mind, can you describe the latest symptoms one more time, from about the time you press the Start button?  Let's assume that the jumper cables are NOT attached for now.

I'm looking for something like:

The lights all come on and glow just fine.

When I press the Start button I hear a click followed immediately by the sound of the motor turning over and over.

I never hear any hint that combustion is occurring in the cylinders ... just the ZzzZzzZzz of the motor spinning around.

If I pull one of the plugs, reattach the plug wire, hold the plug up against the engine block and press the Start button I can see a nice fat

blue spark jumping across the plug gap.  The same thing happens with the other plug.  Both plugs are light brown in color, not dry black or sticky black or anything like that.[/list:u]If my sample description is accurate then all I can think to try is some electrical tests, even though the spark seems OK.  (I've been bit by this before, although I will admit that the spark I was getting was more yellow.)  These tests will require an ohmmeter.  If money is tight see if you can borrow one.  While you're hunting for a meter, I'll try to collect & improve some info I've posted in the past about these tests.

If there's something INCORRECT in my sample description then let us know ASAP.  

[Frost]

3)[/color] I'm looking forward to the results of the float height check.  (I'm not expecting miracles here, but if nothing else we can keep building up that pile of facts.)

float height looks good...

4) So, let me get this straight.  When you push on the Start button the motor turns over - whether or not you use jumper cables attached to a car battery?  If that's true then the whole starter motor system sounds fine to me.  You mentioned before that you get a nice blue spark.  I assume that you get this spark when the Start button is pushed down and the starter motor is turning the engine over.  (Since the engine never "catches" and runs, that should be the only possible time.)

yes...the motor turns over no matter what i use as the electrical power...so it's definitely not the starter motor...
the sparks plug show a blue spark when being tested by grouding it and hitting the starter button

5) That's pretty much how I felt - both before and after taking the carbs apart the first time.

BEFORE: "I'm gonna mess something up ... I just know it!   "

AFTER: "Hey, that wasn't so bad after all!  "[/list:u](You DID turn the petcock under the tank back ON, right?  I'm only asking because _I_ have forgotten before.   )

YES!...i didn't screw up!!...lol...and i used an alternate source of fuel...i just used a bottle with fuel inside in place of a fuel tank...it works perfectly fine...was shown to me by another fellow biker

I'm looking for something like:

The lights all come on and glow just fine.

yes...all fine

When I press the Start button I hear a click followed immediately by the sound of the motor turning over and over.

yes just turn over and over...without the engine catching

I never hear any hint that combustion is occurring in the cylinders ... just the ZzzZzzZzz of the motor spinning around.

yes!!...that's what i hear....no no combustion whatsoever

If I pull one of the plugs, reattach the plug wire, hold the plug up against the engine block and press the Start button I can see a nice fat blue spark jumping across the plug gap.  The same thing happens with the other plug.  Both plugs are light brown in color, not dry black or sticky black or anything like that.[/list:u]If my sample description is accurate then all I can think to try is some electrical tests, even though the spark seems OK.  (I've been bit by this before, although I will admit that the spark I was getting was more yellow.)  These tests will require an ohmmeter.  If money is tight see if you can borrow one.  While you're hunting for a meter, I'll try to collect & improve some info I've posted in the past about these tests.

yes...that's how i tested...and it's tan in color...it's dry and looks perfectly normal....

I just bought a Analog Multimeter but i have NO IDEA how to use it....i can switch to DCV, DCA, OHM, ACV...so i guess i should check the OHM if i wanna check for the AMP right??...

also...i went out and got a compression tester today...hopefully i'll be able to test it today and see if it's the compression at fault...lets hope not because it's a 03 engine and i'll be really disappointed at suzuki if i have to do a rebuilt already...

thanks a lot again...

[Frost]

oh...and as for the update...

i've taken out the carbs and my friend Sprocket cleaned it thoroughly and checked the float bowls for me...

i've replaced it back into the bike and connected all the hoses correctly...

gave it fuel by using a bottle to hold the tank and directly feed it into the lower T of the carb hose...

checked the floats after installation and all looks fine...

battery is good...hooked it up onto car battery to give it constant juice to keep on starting it up...

sparks plug is perfect...

now it's all up to compression....sigh...

[indestructibleman]

when you pull your plugs, so you get any definite indication that there's fuel in the cylinder?
is the plug wet?  can you smell gas in there?
while i'm no expert on the GS, it really sounds to me like you've got a fuel delivery problem.
how's your air filter?  can your engine breath well enough?  you might try running it (briefly and not out on the street or anywhere near lots of dust and dirt) with the air filter removed.
the compression test will be useful data, but i wouldn't expect your compression to get so bad that the engine won't fire at all.

cheers,
will

[indestructibleman]

one more thought.  are you sure that your choke is opening and closing properly?

[Kerry]

Well, indestructibleman beat me to it - posted while I was still typing.  Hope you don't mind getting it again!

================================

That pile of facts is coming along nicely.  

I'll talk about your multimeter settings in a separate post.  Meanwhile, something is troubling me.  When my bike was running on one cylinder, I got plenty of white "smoke" from the exhaust pipe, and my shed soon reeked of fresh (unburned) gasoline.  And yes, I did have the garage door open....

If you ARE getting fuel to the cylinders, and there is NO combustion, then you should have lots of vaporized fuel coming out of the pipe.  And your spark plugs should be wet with fuel (not necessarily black, but certainly wet).

Since your float height is good we can assume that the fuel tank outlet, fuel hose, lower T-connection and float valves are OK.  (Unless the carbs don't fill back up after you drain them again.)

It almost sounds like your jets are totally blocked ... but the carbs have apparently been cleaned twice now.  Either that or the air filter is totally blocked and no air is getting to the carbs, so no fuel gets pulled out of the float bowls, no air/fuel mixing happens, and no air/fuel vapor gets to the cylinders.  That would have to be SOME blockage!

also...i went out and got a compression tester today

Hmmmm.  Hold this as a last resort ... unless you plan on keeping the tester no matter what.  If you get the bike running without having to use the tester maybe you could return it.  (How much do they cost?)

[Frost]

i pulled the air filter out...and even tried it without the air box...but it still wont' run...

my friend told me to put 2 DROPS into the cylinder via the spark plug holes and then fire it up...haven't tried it yet...but we'll see what happens wheni do...

as for the compression tester...it was 30 bucks CDN...and it's a 90 day guarantee return policy  :mrgreen: ...

havne't done anything yet...and this is on hold until i get back in town to work on my bike...i hate leaving my bike dead an hour away from where i am...sigh...won't be able to work on it for another week... :x

[i3randon12]

frost!!

when u tryed bump starting it            did u try it in first gear??

try this...

put it in 2nd

hold in clutch

roll in about 5 mph

pop clutch out ( fast ) pull it in (fast)

give a little gas

if it dosent work


u got one big problem!

[Frost]

update...

finally after 2 weeks i'm able to work on my bike again...

so today i tested the combustion...and the reading shows ~35ish PSI
i couldn't find the correct psi from the manual...so can anyone clarify it for me??

well...nothing else worked...so i decided to check if fuel was actually going into the cylinders...

first of all...can anyone provide me with a carb hosing diagram for the NEW GS carbs?...i found one for the older carbs...but i found that they are a bit different...

there are 2 T-connectors on the carb...one lower and one top...is the bottom the inlet flow tube and the top the overflow???...

ok...so i connected a fuel source to test it out...and it doesn't seem to be sucking gas in at all...i tried both top and bottom T-tubings...

so i finally decided to drop gas into the cylinder via the sparks plug hole...and when i fired it up...the engine seem to be catching...

so right now i'm narrowed it down to a fuel problem...
why isn't my cylinder getting gas?...but why was it wet when i took out the carbs?...

how does a carb work?

thanks...

[Kerry]

[oramac]

Kerry, I don't know if this applies here, but he said that the day before it died it took 30 min. to start it, then the next day it didn't start at all.  If it doesn't turn out to be the carbs, I would go with timing.  I'd pull the cover and look for corroded or worn parts.  I had this same problem in a car once, and it turned out to be a stretched timing chain.  If the timing is out of sync.  The starter would click,  it would get spark,  it would flood the carbs, but it would not fire.  Of course this is from a car guy with less experience on the bike.  What do you think?

[Frost]

what about fuel delivery  to the cylinders???

i tried droping gas into the sparks plug hole directly then fire it up..and the engine seem to be catching...


timing?...where and how do i check??

[Kerry]

what about fuel delivery  to the cylinders???

Did that Motorcycle Carburetor Theory 101 link help any?

i tried droping gas into the sparks plug hole directly then fire it up..and the engine seem to be catching...

Seems to be?  While that's encouraging, it's not much to go on...  :dunno:

timing?...where and how do i check??

The only timing adjustment I know of is done by installing an ignition advancer.  A worn camchain could affect the timing, but surely you don't have enough miles on your bike for that to be a suspect.  Otherwise, the timing is non-adjustable.  No points, no condenser, nothing like that.


I'd still like to know the resistance (OHMS) values for the signal generator coils and the ignition coils.  That would give us a baseline on the most important electrical parameters of your ignition system.  See the ignition coil measurement technique diagram and expected values halfway down the 1st page of the Narrowing down the problems to a broken bike thread.

Then try to fill out the checklist at the end of the 2nd page of that same thread.  If you're not really clear on how/where to measure, back up and read the whole thread.  It has some false leads and some detours, but if you're patient you can get comfortable with that meter you bought.  

[Frost]

yes the carbs 101 helped...

and i just bought a DIGITAL multimeter ...i'll do the measurements and post it up...hopefully i'll get the right ones....

thanks again kerry...