Clutchless upshifting

[DrtRydr23]

So I've been playing around with clutchless upshifting on my SV.  Today is the first day that I've tried it and found that I can get the bike to shift pretty well without the clutch.  However, I cannot make a very smooth shift in lower gears for some reason.  I suspect that I'm rolling off the throttle too much when I shift and it is making it feel jumpy.  I can get it pretty good in 4th through 6th, but for some reason 2nd and 3rd are pretty rough.  There is no grinding or anything that makes me think I'm hurting the tranny, just a little lurch and a rough shift.

Anyone else here upshift without the clutch regularly?  Any tips for shifting in lower gears would be awesome.  I'll probably play around with it some more, but if I can't smooth it out I'm going back to clutching.  Thanks.

[JAS6377]

I've found that it's only smooth in lower gears if you're really in the throttle. Otherwise, it jerks like a mofo. 4th through 6th is a simple roll on, blip down while pushing up on the shifter, and resume throttle. Smooth as butter.

[Wagoneer]

I don't clutchless shift out of 1st to 2nd, all others are smooth as silk when you're heavy on the throttle. Unless I'm really accelerating hard I don't bother. Actually I usually only do it when merging onto a highway or something similar.

After you practice for a bit it'll get smoother. You'll learn just the right timing and just how much and how long to get off the throttle.

[Banzai]

Most of my shifting is clutchless. The exception tends to be 1st to 2nd where I was sometimes getting bounced back into neutral. Going up a hill also make a clutchless upshift much more difficult.

With practice you get used to the careful co-ordination of throttle-off and shift movement. I tend to start applying pressure to the shifter just before the throttle-off. The throttle off is only for a fraction of a second to assist with rev matching.

I used to practice clutchless changes in cars but they are much harder than bikes for a number of reasons. I've never owned an auto and never will.

[DrtRydr23]

Yeah, I think I'm pretty much doing it correctly just not efficiently.  I apply a little pressure upward on the shifter while accelerating, then roll off the throttle a bit while applying a little more pressure and it clicks up into gear.  I think I just need to ease of the throttle a little less and let it slide in rather than rolling off and trying to push it in.  I don't want to be too passive on the shifter though and grind gears or increase wear on my transmission.

[Paulcet]

The RPM difference from 5th to 6th is much less than from 1st to 2nd. Maybe you are not rolling off enough?

[DrtRydr23]

The RPM difference from 5th to 6th is much less than from 1st to 2nd. Maybe you are not rolling off enough?

Yeah I hadn't really thought about that.  Everything I've seen says to just barely roll off and that letting off too much makes the shifts jumpy.  Being that I'm a novice at his style of shifting, I have checked some vids on the web and posted here.  That is the bulk of my knowledge on the subject.

[GS500F2004]

Between 1st and 2nd is more difficult because the gear ratios between them are significantly different. I don't understand how some people are managing to clutchless shift most of the time. Unless you're on nice open roads most of the time with plenty of time and distance to reach the right RPM band before shifting.

I guess the route I take has too much varied traffic, I use the clutch. Only really do clutchless if I'm trying to race someone on an open road.

It is slightly more difficult in a car because it has synchros, if the synchro speeds don't match, then you won't be able to shift properly. Not recommended to do this in your everyday car, you'll just wear out the synchros.

[tmbr_wulf]

I do it in both my truck and on my bike.  I think on the bike I tend not to do it in the first couple of gears, and even shifting  3 - 5 I tend to like it around 6K RPM or so.  Doing it in a non-sequential transmission is a totally different animal.  There are usually such differences between the gear ratios that I have to wait for the engine to rev down into the right range for the next gear.  I find that in the truck I'm doing just to keep me from clutching, because I actually shift slower between gears because it allows the engine to settle.

[ron freeman]

Does clutchless shifting damage the gears?

[DrtRydr23]

The shift to 6th is almost seamless, and to 5th is pretty smooth as well.  The lower gears definitely are jumpy, and rolling off the throttle more just made it more pronounced.  I'll still practice some, but I don't think the bulk of my shifting will be clutchless.  I'm so much more smooth with the clutch.  Maybe onramps or accelerating on the highway, but regular riding I think I'm just going to clutch it.  I'm sure the more I practice the better I'll get, but it seems that most people don't like to shift sans clutch in lower gears.  To me, what's the point if you are just doing it in the top 2 or 3 gears.  Might as well just use the clutch for all of it.

[GS500F2004]

If you mistime, it can grind the gears (you will hear it), continuously getting it wrong will damage it. Forget the gears, you can end up bending the shift forks as well if you get it wrong.

[peteGS]

I just started experimenting with this also.

1st to 2nd definitely clutch it, I haven't gotten it smooth there at all.

If you're having fun and getting up it, clutchless from 2nd up is the way to go 

On the commute it just doesn't work, not enough rev's to get it smooth.

[Banzai]

Most of my riding is commuting and usually between 4k and 6k rpm. About 1/3 of the time I'll change 1st to 2nd clutchless and >90% of the time the rest of the upchanges are clutchless. Using decent oil helps. I only use Motul 4100 which may seem extravagant for a GS but it is good stuff.

[tmbr_wulf]

My relatively uninformed opinion brings me to believe that in a sequential manual transmission the damage to any gears would probably be minimal to none.  I would worry about possible damage to the engine/drive train because I've had instances where I've rolled off the throttle too much, causing a little deceleration, which caused the bike to buck a little bit when I completed the upshift.  And I have also heard of bent shift forks as GS500F2004 mentioned.  But I haven't had a gear grind on a sequential transmission as long as I was really following through with the shift.

On a truck/car transmission, there's plenty of room to get some gear grinding in.  Although if you want to get technical, the gears in the transmission are always in mesh, your actually putting wear on the dog teeth that engage the gears and transmit power through the gearbox.

If you want to learn more about the subject, do some reading on Wikipedia or HowStuffWorks.  I'm going to go look at some diagrams now because hey, I've got to get rid of this erection some how.

[yamahonkawazuki]

If my cages were manual ( most) id shift sans clutch. even into first if pointed downhill lol from a subcompact to a road truck.

[robfriedenberger]

I've never tried it until today, and It was awesome getting on the freeway! 

I played with in in 20 miles of mixed traffic and i got really smooth with it, it seamed like 1st wouldn't let me do it but 2nd up was fine.

[Watcher]

Did it the whole way up to work today.  It was freakin' COLD!  About 40°F...  Kept my right hand on the throttle, left hand between my nuts and the seat, and gave the block a big bear-hug at every stop.

You just gotta know what RPMs each gear likes and shift when the next gear will be in optimum range.  That's how you do it in a car with a non-sequential trans, gotta know the relationship between speed, gearing, and engine RPM.

Run it tall in the lower gears, it gets more forgiving in higher gears.

[burning1]

Unless you have really tall gearing, it's possible to smoothly shift at pretty much any RPM or throttle position.

The real key about clutchless shifting is that happens in the free-play between acceleration and engine breaking. If you roll off the throttle too much, the shift will tend to load and unload the transmission abruptly, and it will be jerky.

The trick I usually use is to lightly load the shift lever, and then roll off just enough for the transmission to click into the next gear. If the shift seems abrupt, it means I probably rolled off too much.

At low throttle positions and low RPM, it takes very little throttle movement. The wider open the throttle, the more you have to move your wrist to click the transmission into place. Same is true for higher RPM or gearing - bigger difference in speed between gears means you may need to roll off the throttle a little further.

It's also possible to perform a smooth clutch-less downshift, but the technique isn't as beneficial for performance riding and thus not as common.

[peteGS]

Unless you have really tall gearing, it's possible to smoothly shift at pretty much any RPM or throttle position.

The real key about clutchless shifting is that happens in the free-play between acceleration and engine breaking. If you roll off the throttle too much, the shift will tend to load and unload the transmission abruptly, and it will be jerky.

The trick I usually use is to lightly load the shift lever, and then roll off just enough for the transmission to click into the next gear. If the shift seems abrupt, it means I probably rolled off too much.

At low throttle positions and low RPM, it takes very little throttle movement. The wider open the throttle, the more you have to move your wrist to click the transmission into place. Same is true for higher RPM or gearing - bigger difference in speed between gears means you may need to roll off the throttle a little further.

It's also possible to perform a smooth clutch-less downshift, but the technique isn't as beneficial for performance riding and thus not as common.

Good post, makes perfect sense!

You've described it very well and I've noticed this when loading up the lever unintentionally first.

I'll have to give this technique a bit more of a try next time I'm out... my biggest problem is many years of habit using a clutch every time...