Chain that won't stretch

[sledge]

My point is this.....

People become anal about chain tension, they insist it HAS to be spot on and convince themselves it HAS to be done by the book........or bad things will instantly happen. Suzuki quote an adjustment method simply because they have to and the method they quote may be seen by them as being the easier or safer option. I believe the figure quoted is based on the weight of an average rider using the machine under average circumstances. You can adjust it with the bikes weight on or off the back wheel but why worry about it.....as soon as someone gets on it the slack is taken up and the heavier you are the more slack is taken out so all the careful adjustment you have just done goes out of the window!!

People talk about tension reducing a chains lifespan but tension is just one of many factors involved and I don't hear people saying don't use it in the rain, or the dust, or on bumpy roads or accelerate too fast....and lets face it all these things contribute to chain wear and will shorten its life if taken to an extreme.

Like most things that require adjustment there will be a degree of tolerance involved, I see the quoted figure as being towards the minimum and I tend to be generous when carrying out adjustments. If anything its better to be on the loose side as that places less strain on the components.


 

[twocool]

Sledge,

I must respectfully disagree with many of your statements below.  I will carefully explain each, and why.

First misconception:  "Chain tension adjustment is a factor of rider weight"

Truth:  Chain tension is a factor of swing arm geometry.  When swing arm is unloaded (like driving over bumps) the chain will get looser.  When the swing arm is compressed (also like driving over bumps) the chain will get tighter.  (if rider weight was a factor, "the book" would give different spec for different rider weight...like they  do with tire inflation)  If you use the factory spec.  the chain will be in a adjustment for all rider weights......which really means... it will be in proper tension through all swing arm range of movement.

Second misconception:  It doesn't matter whether you set chain tension with the bike on center stand or on side stand...there is no difference.

Truth:  If you use Suzuki spec.  You must check chain tension while on side stand.  If you were to use Suzuki min spec of .8" while on the center stand...the chain will become over tight during riding over bumps.  (regardless of rider weight)

Third misconception:  Don't do it by the book....I have a "better way"

Truth:   If you do it by the book...it will be correct....leaves out guesswork.  The book show a very simple and easy to adjust the chain....why all the opposition to that?


Forth misconception:  people are too anal..."people say the chain tension MUST be "spot on""

Truth:  Nobody said that....The spec allows plus or minus 5 mm...that's a big range of acceptability....no need to be exact...just need to be in spec....doing it "right" is not being "anal"

Finally...all the straw-man arguments..

Yes, many things contribute to chain wear...but we're talking only about chain tension here.

Cookie

My point is this.....

People become anal about chain tension, they insist it HAS to be spot on and convince themselves it HAS to be done by the book........or bad things will instantly happen. Suzuki quote an adjustment method simply because they have to and the method they quote may be seen by them as being the easier or safer option. I believe the figure quoted is based on the weight of an average rider using the machine under average circumstances. You can adjust it with the bikes weight on or off the back wheel but why worry about it.....as soon as someone gets on it the slack is taken up and the heavier you are the more slack is taken out so all the careful adjustment you have just done goes out of the window!!

People talk about tension reducing a chains lifespan but tension is just one of many factors involved and I don't hear people saying don't use it in the rain, or the dust, or on bumpy roads or accelerate too fast....and lets face it all these things contribute to chain wear and will shorten its life if taken to an extreme.

Like most things that require adjustment there will be a degree of tolerance involved, I see the quoted figure as being towards the minimum and I tend to be generous when carrying out adjustments. If anything its better to be on the loose side as that places less strain on the components.

[twocool]

Janx,

Once you install "non standard" parts, then the factory specifications are out the window...they may apply, or they may not apply, and it's hard to tell which...

So you instantly become an "arm chair engineer" and when you ride you become a "test pilot"!!!


If you say the new shock 'never" bottoms out...uhhhh...ok....so?

It certainly allows some range of swing arm travel....so...you gotta figure what is happening to your chain through the entire range of swing arm travel.....you don't want the chain too loose when the swing arm is fully extended...and you don't want the chain too tight when the swing arm is compressed as far as your shock will allow....

I'd grab some really heavy duty ratchet straps, and wrap the rear of the bike...and start ratcheting down the rear suspension, and keep an eye on the chain to see what happens.  Probably there is a "witness mark" that shows the max the shock has been compressed as of now....you should compress the suspension to at least that far, and see if the chain gets super tight or just a bit tight.....you probably should go a bit beyond and compress some more...just to see what happens if that suspension gets an extreme load during riding..

Cookie

I see the point made by twocool now!... hadn't realised that factor. .. but. .
Stock suspension can/will bottom out.. we all been there!

What about with like my katana shock though? Since put in never bottomed yet... but more length/travel in it.... even with my 310 ish lbs geared up.... that going to affect the situ? .. I'm tired tho... I don't think it would cos no bottom out. .. or is the extra travel in the top?... very tired actually! ... anyone care to explain?

[Janx101]

Thanks cookie! .. most of what you latest replied to sledge (and several hours sleep) ... made it clearer again...

Even with the katana shock installed. .. although the particular values of setting may change. .. the actual theory/ physicality of your explanation doesn't!

The chain tension settings are there to deal with the swingarm movement range.. not the rate of change/rider weight. .. they handle from extreme top position (extension) to extreme bottom position (compression/bottomed out)

The 8st rider (oh and 16lbs in a stone) or the 18st rider (I wish!) Only affect how low or high the suspension sits while riding. .. you can't go past the 'stops'!

I was over tired and just couldn't decide if the shock length would change the reasoning (not the values)

... 'humorous dig' .. shame on you sledge!,  engineering background should have reasoned the reasons for you!

[gsJack]

I've always adjusted my chains on the centerstand and wouldn't consider doing it on the sidestand regardless of what Suzuki has to say about it.  I align the wheel when I put a new chain on and it stays aligned for the life of the chain.  When making a chain adjustment I take equal turns or half turns of the adjusters on both sides to bring the chain into adjustment while maintaing the wheel alignment. 

It's important to maintain the pull of the adjuster on the axle at all times during adjustment to maintain wheel alignment so after loosening the axle nut for chain adjustment I snug it back down a bit so there is some resistance to the adjuster pull on the axle keeping it all tight up.

When the bike is back down on the sidestand I do give the chain a quick check for freeplay in that position.

[twocool]

And....how much slack do you, or did you put?  And how did you determine what slack to use?


Just askin'

Cookie

I've always adjusted my chains on the centerstand and wouldn't consider doing it on the sidestand regardless of what Suzuki has to say about it.  I align the wheel when I put a new chain on and it stays aligned for the life of the chain.  When making a chain adjustment I take equal turns or half turns of the adjusters on both sides to bring the chain into adjustment while maintaing the wheel alignment. 

It's important to maintain the pull of the adjuster on the axle at all times during adjustment to maintain wheel alignment so after loosening the axle nut for chain adjustment I snug it back down a bit so there is some resistance to the adjuster pull on the axle keeping it all tight up.

When the bike is back down on the sidestand I do give the chain a quick check for freeplay in that position.

[twocool]

Jack,

Let me be clear here....

It is OK to work on the chain, with the bike on the center stand...align the wheel, and take a guess at the slack in the chain etc....

But...once you're done, you MUST put the bike on the ground, on the side stand, to CHECK the chain play...as per Suzuki manual...

If the chain play is out of spec....you have to put the bike back on the center stand...loosen up the axle nut...and tighten or loosen the adjusters as required....Back to the side stand to check the spec......

Again...if you place the bike on the center stand...which means the suspension is fully extended...and you adjust the chain to the .8" ~ 1.2" spec....the chain WILL be too tight once the bike is put on the ground and the suspension compresses.  And if you ride over bumps, the suspension will compress...possibly all the way...and really stress that chain..




Cookie

I've always adjusted my chains on the centerstand and wouldn't consider doing it on the sidestand regardless of what Suzuki has to say about it.  I align the wheel when I put a new chain on and it stays aligned for the life of the chain.  When making a chain adjustment I take equal turns or half turns of the adjusters on both sides to bring the chain into adjustment while maintaing the wheel alignment. 

It's important to maintain the pull of the adjuster on the axle at all times during adjustment to maintain wheel alignment so after loosening the axle nut for chain adjustment I snug it back down a bit so there is some resistance to the adjuster pull on the axle keeping it all tight up.

When the bike is back down on the sidestand I do give the chain a quick check for freeplay in that position.

[gsJack]

And....how much slack do you, or did you put?  And how did you determine what slack to use?

Just askin'

Cookie

I just grab the chain near the center of the lower run and move it up and down and observe the free play.     Thinking back 15 years and 180k GS miles ago I probably noticed the first time I adjusted a GS chain that there was a little less free play after the bike was down and compensated so I had an inch or so the next time after it was down.   

Reading the 2 current chain threads I reluctantly find myself agreeing with Sledge for the 2nd time this year:

My point is this.....

People become anal about chain tension, they insist it HAS to be spot on and convince themselves it HAS to be done by the book........or bad things will instantly happen. Suzuki quote an adjustment method simply because they have to and the method they quote may be seen by them as being the easier or safer option.

[ohgood]

Chain: http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/5553/i/did-520-standard-roller-chain

What I guess I'm really asking is, do any of you have suggestions for a high quality, strong chain that will last?  I'll have to ignore my cheap heart and go for something that I'm not afraid of snapping on the highway.

Thanks for reading my book of a question.

if you read the very first review of that chain:


***"CRAPPY

I just put one on my klr650 and had to adjust it 6 times in 800 miles. This stretched 1.25 inches. What a piece of crap."***

you'll understand why non oring/xring chains are a waste of money.



the general rule is: buy an oring/xring chain every 30,000 miles, or buy a NON oring/xring chain every week.



hopefully it didn't wear out your sprockets in the process too.

[Iarn]

Ohgood is absolutely right. A huge number of those reviews are negative. It's important to research whatever you're buying, before you buy it, regardless of the price. You know the old saying. Buy it nice or buy it twice. . . Now you'll likely have to replace that chain. I'd consider it a danger to keep on my bike.

[CndnMax]

I used an EK chain with a screw on master link. In 14000miles and 2.5 years i adjusted it maybe 4 times and it still looked brand new when i sold the bike. clean with kerosene and lube with DuPont chain saver.

[fetor56]

Just saying......from my experience it's fine to adjust your chain/laser your chain on the centre stand,but remember to add about 5-7mm to that recommended 20-30mm cos when it's on the side stand it tightens slightly.

[twocool]

Wow...Like...somebody who actually understands this !!!!

cookie

Just saying......from my experience it's fine to adjust your chain/laser your chain on the centre stand,but remember to add about 5-7mm to that recommended 20-30mm cos when it's on the side stand it tightens slightly.

[Suzuki Stevo]

I have used the center stand (when equipped) since 1968 on my personal bike collection and any bike I have worked on using whatever spec they give me. You are over thinking the simple process of adjusting chain slack if you think you have to use the side stand, we are not splitting atoms here. I also don't set my valve lash after the initial 600 miles either.


'67 Honda CT90
'73 Honda XR75
'73 Honda CB350F
'75 Honda CB400F
'76 Yamaha MX125C
'76 Maico 450
'77 Yamaha YZ80D
'77 Yamaha YZ250D
'77 Yamaha DT250D
'78 Yamaha YZ80E
'79 Honda XR185
'79 Suzuki GS750L
'80 Honda XR80
'81 Honda XR200R
'81 Honda XR100
'82 Kawasaki KZ1000K2
'97 Honda SR50
'02 Honda CH80K2
'05 Suzuki DL650K5
'06 Honda PS250
'07 Suzuki AN400K7
'07 Suzuki GS500F
'08 Suzuki GSX650F
'10 Honda SH150i
'10 Kawasaki Ninja 250R
'13 Yamaha WR250R
'13 Suzuki Boulevard M50

[Suzuki Stevo]

Just saying......from my experience it's fine to adjust your chain/laser your chain on the centre stand,but remember to add about 5-7mm to that recommended 20-30mm cos when it's on the side stand it tightens slightly.

Do you really think that the static weight of the bike compressing the suspension while on the side stand requires one dimension and another 5-7mm for adjusting on the center stand 

  EDIT: What about spring preload, softer or harder, or the added weight of luggage or accessory's or just plain worn suspension, all variables that will cause the suspension to compress to a different degree while on the side stand..way too many variables from bike to bike, no two bikes will ever sag to the same position. A reliable process removes variables, all the more reason to use the center stand. Unladen suspension (center stand) is a far more reliable/consistent way to adjust your chain, regardless of what Suzuki says   

[twocool]

Making a mistake a hundred times, or a thousand times...it is still a mistake!

If you set the GS 500 chain slack, to the Suzuki spec, but while on center stand.....the chain will be too tight..period.


The last guy realized this, and created his own modified spec..

i.e. looser than Suzuki spec  while on center stand, so a to be within suzuki spec when on side stand...

Very simple  concept.

Even Dr.  Jack who is arguing NOT to do it the Suzuki way...actually does do it suzuki way, because he says once he's done, he checks play on side stand, to "about an inch"...

.8 ~ 1.2"...is about and inch.........

Just sayin........

Cookie

I have used the center stand (when equipped) since 1968 on my personal bike collection and any bike I have worked on using whatever spec they give me. You are over thinking the simple process of adjusting chain slack if you think you have to use the side stand, we are not splitting atoms here. I also don't set my valve lash after the initial 600 miles either.


'67 Honda CT90
'73 Honda XR75
'73 Honda CB350F
'75 Honda CB400F
'76 Yamaha MX125C
'76 Maico 450
'77 Yamaha YZ80D
'77 Yamaha YZ250D
'77 Yamaha DT250D
'78 Yamaha YZ80E
'79 Honda XR185
'79 Suzuki GS750L
'80 Honda XR80
'81 Honda XR200R
'81 Honda XR100
'82 Kawasaki KZ1000K2
'97 Honda SR50
'02 Honda CH80K2
'05 Suzuki DL650K5
'06 Honda PS250
'07 Suzuki AN400K7
'07 Suzuki GS500F
'08 Suzuki GSX650F
'10 Honda SH150i
'10 Kawasaki Ninja 250R
'13 Yamaha WR250R
'13 Suzuki Boulevard M50

[fetor56]

Just saying......from my experience it's fine to adjust your chain/laser your chain on the centre stand,but remember to add about 5-7mm to that recommended 20-30mm cos when it's on the side stand it tightens slightly.

Do you really think that the static weight of the bike compressing the suspension while on the side stand requires one dimension and another 5-7mm for adjusting on the center stand 

  EDIT: What about spring preload, softer or harder, or the added weight of luggage or accessory's or just plain worn suspension, all variables that will cause the suspension to compress to a different degree while on the side stand..way too many variables from bike to bike, no two bikes will ever sag to the same position. A reliable process removes variables, all the more reason to use the center stand. Unladen suspension (center stand) is a far more reliable/consistent way to adjust your chain, regardless of what Suzuki says 

Like i said "from my experience"......why don't u test it to your own specifications then you'll have your own experience.

[Suzuki Stevo]

The good thing is we all agree, too tight is not good. Weather you use the full synthetic route to adjust the chain or the dino juice method to adjust your chain, the good thing is your adjusting your chain and understand that too tight is not good 

[Suzuki Stevo]

It would only be a mistake if I left a literal lifetime of damaged secondary drives in my wake, quite the contrary, I have never had to replace a damaged driveshaft seal or driveshaft in my 47 years of adjusting chains. Chain damage is the least of your worry's if you have the chain too tight, driveshaft and driveshaft seals are where the real damage is and is where the real concern should lay. I use the factory settings but always to the loose side on all of the 27 bikes I have owned. I was riding MX bikes back when suspension travel went from just under 4 inches for the '76 MX125C to 9.8 in just 1 year for the '77 YZ250D, my current WR250R comes with 10.6 inches of travel. A loose chain is a happy chain 

Holy Phuck Batman, choose a method, side or center stand, go to the loose side and Ride On...both ways work 

Making a mistake a hundred times, or a thousand times...it is still a mistake!

If you set the GS 500 chain slack, to the Suzuki spec, but while on center stand.....the chain will be too tight..period.


The last guy realized this, and created his own modified spec..

i.e. looser than Suzuki spec  while on center stand, so a to be within suzuki spec when on side stand...

Very simple  concept.

Even Dr.  Jack who is arguing NOT to do it the Suzuki way...actually does do it suzuki way, because he says once he's done, he checks play on side stand, to "about an inch"...

.8 ~ 1.2"...is about and inch.........

Just sayin........

Cookie

[cpaiin]

Looks like this post really took turn. 
Anyway, it's been over a month.  I've probably put on about 500 more miles without having to tighten my chain.  It is a bit looser than before so I think I will tighten it again.  I'm also highly considering buying a better chain with X-rings. 
Thanks to everyone for the advice and replies.