Blank Slate GS500 ( if Suzuki were listening)

[gregjet]

OK myself and many others on this forum like the GS500, but realize that it is dated in it's execution . If Suzuki was going to blank slate a NEW GS500 from the ground up what should it be. Note that nowdays manufacturers use motors ( even frames) as platforms for a small RANGE of bikes, so you don't have to downsay someone that wants a different type of approach to you. Please approach it as a "whole of bike" concept not just one or two things you would like , if possible.
I will keep this as a banner line and do a reply for my thoughts.
REMEMBER: whole of bike but keep the IDEA of the GS500 ( twin commuter/touring 500cc economy price range)

[gregjet]

OK Here's mine.
500cc( thereabouts), parallel  twin 180 or 270 deg ( becomming common) crank, water cooled. EFI. twin cam or single cam with rockers ( ease of maintenence), TWIN valves, medium compression ( except maybe a sports version), short skirt coated pistons, narrow modern crankcases, 6speed gearbox, simple 2 spark plug setup with ACCESSIBLE plugs. around 50HP would be fine. Motor no physically bigger than it need to be.
Bike to weight no more than 160kg.
17" wheels except on a adventure model with 19/17.110 front ,160 rear.
USD forks ( Hyosung can do it for cheap so can Suzuki. They are tied companies, or were).
Linkage rear suspension alloy of light steel formed swingarm.
Light alloy main frame.
Bolt on steel rear frame ( so it can take racks for luggage)
Decent two seat setup separate so the rear can be removed and replaced with a rack.  Well designed main seat.
Light weight approach ( not fragile) to whole bike.
17 to 19 litre petrol tank.
Fully raired sports and adventure touring model, naked commuter or maybe factory "cafe racer" model.
Priced similiarly to current model ( yamaha did it afterall with a totally new bike .MT/FZ07)
Properly design LED headlights. All other lighting LED.
Low/medium standover like the current GS500 ( one of it's strong points for wide acceptance).
There ya go. Give us your desires.

[Watcher]

Copy/paste Honda CB500F, done.

Oh, make sure the horn and turn signal switches are in the proper orientation, too.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to not have to take off the fuel tank and half the electrics and use a mile long extension to get at the spark plugs.  The CB has those "pauldrons" flanking the tank and they're basically hollow.  Honda could have been a little more efficient with stuffing them with ancillaries...

[philward]

If you go through and modernise most of the features of the GS500E you rapidly end up at the CB400SF (in my opinion at least).  Which is a very handsome learner-suitable UJM with all the bells and whistles (and a price to match) - abs, fuel injection, twin front discs, vtec, water cooling, 16v inline 4.



The reality is that if you start throwing alloy frames, water cooling, new engines, etc in the GS it rapidly just becomes another bike entirely.  You know farmer's axe and all...

Aesthetically what is it that makes the GS500? The F model has a fairly recognisable look, but with the naked I can't really point out the one stand out design feature.  Or have I missed it? (don't get me wrong: it's wonderfully utilitarian and I like the UJM look)

Anyway here's my wishlist for a 2018 GS update (kept minimal):
fuel injection
more comfortable seat
twin disc, abs

[Rallyfan]

The 3 most important features are fuel injection, fuel injection, and fuel injection.

[gregjet]

Both the cb500 models and especially the cb400f weight a ton. The 400F is also a 4 which is outside the parameters ( too much complexity. Stupid engine config for a motorcycle especially a small one with 4 cyl. Fine for a racing motor ,stupid for a commuter /tourer).

[The Buddha]

In addition to all these I want belt drive and a 15" or 16" rear tire.
So we don't have to fork over 150 for a 17 that lasts 3000 miles.
Oh yea, plastic gas tank. The rusting crap is getting a bit old.

Cool.
Buddha.

[Watcher]

Both the cb500 models and especially the cb400f weight a ton. The 400F is also a 4 which is outside the parameters ( too much complexity. Stupid engine config for a motorcycle especially a small one with 4 cyl. Fine for a racing motor ,stupid for a commuter /tourer).

The modern CB500s are pretty light, Honda claims ~415 wet.

Also, the Yamaha FZ6 and Honda Hornet made wonderful commuters and they're both 4-cyl.  Obviously it's subjective.

[J_Walker]

In addition to all these I want belt drive and a 15" or 16" rear tire.
So we don't have to fork over 150 for a 17 that lasts 3000 miles.
Oh yea, plastic gas tank. The rusting crap is getting a bit old.

Cool.
Buddha.

S H A F T  D R I V E
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[sorry been spending too much time on reddit.]

[The Buddha]

S H A F T  D R I V E
[sorry been spending too much time on reddit.]

Shaft on a small bike is $$$ and saps a fair bit of power. Belt is cheaper by far.
Cool.
Buddha.

[pliskin]

500cc 2 stroke, adjustable forks, aluminum rear swingarm, fatter tire, higher seat height (about 3in.).

[mr72]

No need to reinvent the wheel. The GS500 engine we all know and love with make more power with fuel injection and with electronic ignition timing control the compression could be increased a touch and increase low end torque. You'd probably wind up with >50hp at the wheel and significantly more torque with EFI+ignition. If Ducati can make a standard with air cooling, no reason a new GS couldn't be air-cooled.

Aluminum trellis frame similar to (or nearly identical to) the SV650 frame but with a more flexible retro-ish seat (one-piece), intentional rear mud-guard, limited/no fairings on an "E" model, round headlight, more forward foot controls than an SV for slightly more upright/standard riding position. Recycle the SV650 fork and rear suspension as-is.

Make an F model that's fully faired as before. Need to have E and F both available.

Avoid plastic cladding on the E model, as in don't try to make it look like a CB500F, more in the direction of Ducati Monster styling wise. Minimal bodywork formula, kind of simple stripped standard bike.

Target weight 360lb dry. Again if Duc can do it with an 800cc bike with 75hp then no reason Suzuki can't.

The bike needs standard ABS for any new offering.

Basically what I'm describing is an SV650N like a first-gen SV with a new 500-700cc air-cooled fuel-injected parallel twin and more standard/upright seating and riding position. Make it $1K less MSRP than SV650 and I think Suzuki would have a winner on their hands. Problem with this formula is that the bike would be too close to an SV650 market-wise and still leaves a hole in the Suzuki lineup competing with the 300cc bikes from the other Japanese companies. So maybe they make a tuned-up 350cc twin that makes ~40hp for this bike, find a way to get it down to 320 lb, and box the ears of Honda/Yamaha/Kawasaki a little bit. They'd probably sell a ton in every place besides the USA.

[J_Walker]

500cc 2 stroke, adjustable forks, aluminum rear swingarm, fatter tire, higher seat height (about 3in.).

if we're bring back 500cc two strokes, I want an I4! sometimes I wonder what it'd take to stuff a modern snowmobile 3cylinder two stroke in a motorcycle frame. I think it would be a HUGE ball of SCARY fun.

but those 90's 500cc two stroke GP bikes... URGHHHH YEEESSSSSSSSSSS

[mr72]

No street legal motorcycle will ever again be made with a two stroke engine. Sorry guys. The EPA has spoken.

[J_Walker]

No street legal motorcycle will ever again be made with a two stroke engine. Sorry guys. The EPA has spoken.

There is one more design of two stroke/diesel type engine that has yet gotten past papers, on paper it works very well and is about as efficient as it gets for any combustion engine. the guy on engineering explained talked about it in the past. I believe it has some sort of issue that nobody has come up with a "fix" for to actually make it work. but nothings impossible.

that being said, as long as you lived in a state where there was no state inspection required on vehicles.. and they made a 500CC i4 2stroke "dirtbike" for a little while... I'd totally buy it and stuff it in a regular motorcycle. EPA EAT MY GREY AREA! 

[gregjet]

" The modern CB500s are pretty light, Honda claims ~415 wet." The specs I see are 428lbs wet. That isn't light. Part of the problem of current bikes is we have got used to big weights because of the 4cyl bikes. MT/FZ07 is 194wet and is a 688cc. Don't get me wrong I think the CBR500 has one of the best motors Honda has made. Just a bit too much weight. Lazy engineering.

A two stroke with a electric/mechanical supercharger and a non crankcase pump design , would be fantastioc and meet pollution guidelines. But I suspect it would be more expensive than a GS500 replacement. Interestingly Suzuki is looking at a supercharger midrange fourstroke twin tourer as we speak.
Buddah remember the CX500. Shaft drive and overengineered one at that. Possible to do it if done properly on a bike this size without too much lose, but your point is valid.
Belt drive could be interesting if done right. Lots of pluses.
"I wonder what it'd take to stuff a modern snowmobile 3cylinder two stroke in a motorcycle frame." I looked at the rotax motors a while ago as a possible project.
Just a note. One of the big things about the current GS500 is that it has good low/mid torque. An i4 motor of 500cc will have more HP but considerable less torque than the cirrent GS500 lump , even fuel injected. That's why I specified twin. It also has more wind resistance. A watercooled trwin with modern crankacse design would be MUCH narrower.

[Watcher]

" The modern CB500s are pretty light, Honda claims ~415 wet." The specs I see are 428lbs wet. That isn't light. Part of the problem of current bikes is we have got used to big weights because of the 4cyl bikes. MT/FZ07 is 194wet and is a 688cc. Don't get me wrong I think the CBR500 has one of the best motors Honda has made. Just a bit too much weight. Lazy engineering.

Uh...  Maybe 194 kilograms...



That's from YAMAHA.  Maybe the engine itself weighs 194 pounds...

But look at the applications.  The CB500F is a commuter, plain and simple, and the CBR500R is a sporty styled intermediate bike.  They are the GS500E/F of the modern day.
The FZ isn't marketed as a commuter, and it isn't designed as a commuter, it's a little more performance driven since they consider it a "Hyper Naked", or in other words, a street-fighter.  They found a way to cut the weight, and if you ask me they did it all in the tail/subframe.  The CB500 actually has a decent seating arrangement.  The FZ07 is sort of comfortable for the pilot at best.

[rg500gamma]

500cc 2 stroke, adjustable forks, aluminum rear swingarm, fatter tire, higher seat height (about 3in.).

RG500 Gamma

[Rallyfan]

I've not seen a 2-stroke premix pump in decades, and the last 2-stroke I rode, a RD350LC, was great fun on the one hand, highly impractical on the other, plus with all the smoke one could not help but recall the way Skylab re-entered the atmosphere.

[The Buddha]

Honda and Kawasaki have both got a thriving 300 and Honda has a 500 as well.
No reason why Suzuki cant get a bite out of all 3 of those with a 500. I suspect someone was asleep at the wheel when they pulled the plug on the GS in 09, after all they had enough left over to keep them selling till 2012 right ?
Anyway they should sort of revert to the stuff they used to already make for the most part. The box section twin spar frame etc etc. I personally think the Honda and kawi look rather tacky plasticky.
Cool.
Buddha.