Valve clearances increased dramatically after cleaning shims

[Frankiechops]

So, I've no idea what's happening here. I was checking the valve clearances and got to following results:

Right exhaust: 0.06
Left exhaust: 0.04
Right intake: less than 0.04
Left intake: 0.04

After taking the shims out to check their sizes, then putting them back in, I now have the following way too high clearance

Right exhaust: 0.45 (not a typo)
Left exhaust 0.5
Right intake: less than 0.04
Left intake: 0.5

Any idea why the clearances have gone off the charts?

Thanks

All measurements in mm

[The Buddha]

How did you clean them ? Usually clearance drops due to oil filling the bucket and lifting the shim.
You think you have valves hanging open ? That's all that can cause the clearance to go up. Turn the motor over a few times and see if it goes back to the original numbers or close enough. If so, you have valves sticking open, potentially something you need to address with oil or gas additive.
Cool.
Buddha.

[Frankiechops]

When I say I cleaned them I mean I just wiped them with a cloth to measure with a vernier. Nothing more. I've advanced the engine half a dozen times manually with no change. Or are you saying to reassemble and start it up?

Thanks

[Frankiechops]

I've just realised I may have totally f****d up. I used a screwdriver to keep the bucket held down after the lobe had depressed it. Advanced the engine to removed and replaced the shim, then advanced the motor one revolution to get it back to where the lobe is depressing it again and removed the screwdriver.

[mr72]

Yeah sounds like you may have bent the valve with contact with the piston.

[Frankiechops]

After searching deeper on that, sounds like you're right. Damn it, what a nightmare! Any suggestions on next move. Easier just to replace the whole head than fluff around with the fixing potential damage to valves and pistons etc? I'm doubting my mechanical abilities after this stupid mistake.

I should note that they were not bent before this and I haven't run the engine, just manually turned it about 10 times. Could this be some sort of saving grace? Potential to just pop new valves in?

Thanks 👍

[sledge]

Are the camshaft bearing caps all tight?

[Frankiechops]

Yep, all tight. I think mr72 is right. Due to my misinterpretation of the process I held the shim basket down one full rotation of the motor. So in hindsight the piston will have hit the valves. I did this for all four   

What should I do now?

Thanks

[mr72]

I think if you confirm the valves are bent, you have little choice. Pull the head, replace the valves. Might as well go full top end rebuild while it's open IMHO.

One way or the other I think you have to pull the head to even evaluate the valves.

[Frankiechops]

Sounds like a job for an actual mechanic I'm thinking. Can I take the top end off and just give them that without taking the engine out?

Thanks

[Frankiechops]

Could this be my best option?

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Suzuki-GS500E-99-06-Cylinder-head-and-camshafts-/324789603944?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0

[mr72]

I think you would have to rebuild the used head to be confident in it, and you already have a used head.

You can pull the head and the jug with the engine in place. I haven't done this myself but watched a pro mechanic do it very slowly and at extremely high cost. If I had it to do over again I'd do it myself. You'll need a machine shop to do the valve seats, new valves, and if you want to do the whole thing, a hone and new rings.

When I had it done here in Texas it cost $1k ish. Nowadays it'd be 50% more, which is perilously close to the value of the motorcycle. DIY it'd be a couple hundred bucks and I keep the tools and have a cool story for my blog.

[Bluesmudge]

I've done it both ways:
1. Swapping a used head in myself with the engine still in the frame (honing cylinders, replacing all gaskets, etc).
2. Having a shop to a top end rebuild with new rings, valves, valve seals, etc

Option 1 was much cheaper (~$400 in new and used parts and tools vs $~2,000 for the shop's work). The mistake I made with option 1 was not replacing the piston rings, so within 20,000 miles the engine was burning ungodly amount of oil, which brought me to option 2. I think if I had replaced the piston rings option 1 would have worked out better. But I did option 1 ten years ago, when you could more easily find recent/low mileage heads. Today a used head is more likely to be high mileage and have dried out valve seals so they may need a top end rebuild anyways. Option 1 is a gamble.

[mr72]

Yeah Bluesmudge the third option is farm out the machine work and do the top end rebuild yourself. It's not any more work than your option 1, and cheaper if you have to recondition any used head you get used anyway.

IDK what current machine shop rates are but 7 years ago when I had my Miata head done it was under $200 for the whole cylinder head reman on a 4yl 16V head, but it didn't need any new valves. Certainly a motorcycle twin head can't be any more expensive than this. I think my new valves were $30 each for the GS.

This all has me considering that 904cc kit for my Bonneville... 100 rwhp sure sounds good.

[Frankiechops]

Thanks for taking the time guys.

So regardless, first step is to remove the head. The bike has only done 10k KMs and was running like a dream until I stuffed up. Having bent the valves, but not actually run the engine with them bent (although manually turned it several times), is it not simply a matter pulling the bent valves out and putting new ones in? Or is there likely more damage and complications?

Thanks again

[mr72]

I think you have to machine the valve seats, and while the head is off you might as well do the valve stem seals, clean everything, inspect the piston for potential cracks due to the valve contact, etc.

And it's just another relatively easy step to pull the jug, hone the bores, and put in new rings. I just can't imagine going to all the work of pulling the head without doing this last bit if it hasn't been done in a while. With only 10k km I can see why you might be inclined to skip it. Hard to say unless you happened to do a compression check before you bent the valves.

[chris900f]

Thanks for taking the time guys.

So regardless, first step is to remove the head. The bike has only done 10k KMs and was running like a dream until I stuffed up. Having bent the valves, but not actually run the engine with them bent (although manually turned it several times), is it not simply a matter pulling the bent valves out and putting new ones in? Or is there likely more damage and complications?

Thanks again

If you bent a valve you won't have any compression on that cylinder. Do you feel any compression resistance when you turn the motor by hand?

[Frankiechops]

There's definitely resistance when turning by hand. How do I knownif it's due to compression though?

Thanks

[Frankiechops]

Pretty much made the same mistake as Ed89 in this thread

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=13248.msg111746#msg111746

So I'm guessing I've got 4 bent valves. Anything else worth trying before I pull the head off?

Cheers

[sledge]

Regardless of what other people suggest you do its your choice and it depends on how much money you want to throw at it.  Take a chance on a used one or get yours reworked professionally. I doubt you will have the kit knowledge or experience to do it yourself.....at least properly. Furthermore once the head is off you might even find some valve seat, valve guide or even piston damage which will complicate the situation even further

But in saying all that, right now your biggest concern is getting the header bolts out without any drama