I bought my 2001 GS500 in the middle of August, and have ridden it almost every day since then, as it's my commuter bike. Since buying it, I've probably put 4 or 5 quarts of oil in it - that's 4-5 quarts of oil in a 2 1/2 month period. First, there were leaks - I had the shop replace several gaskets in the top end of the engine, and then a leak developed at the bottom of the engine, at which point I decided to replace the gasket myself - I did this about a month ago. Had to put in more oil after fixing each leak.
I think that now, though, I'm done with leaks. How is it, then, that when I went out this morning to check the oil level, the dip stick came out with nothing on it? When I filled the engine with oil a month ago, the level came almost to the full mark. The oil pressure light goes off when I start the engine, but I'm not seeing anything show on the dip stick. Where has it all gone? Again, I think I've been able to rule out leaks - there was a small one coming from the oil drain plug, but not a huge one - when I left the bike for a 4-day trip, I came back and there was a single drop of oil on the cement - not enough to account for a whole bunch of oil being gone. Is the engine burning oil? Is the dip stick just marved?
Any suggestions about where to look would be really helpful, as I'm not sure where to look, and I don't want to blow my engine up.
You're not checking it with the bike running, are you? And on center stand, on a flat surface?
You are checking the oil with the bike on the center stand, right?
Just in case:
Bike onto center stand.
Unscrew oil dipstick, remove and wipe clean
Place dipstick back into its hole. Do not screw back in, just rest it on the top of the threads.
Wait a few seconds
Remove dipstick and check level.
Quote from: vinny on November 02, 2011, 02:42:22 PM
You are checking the oil with the bike on the center stand, right?
Just in case:
Bike onto center stand.
Unscrew oil dipstick, remove and wipe clean
Place dipstick back into its hole. Do not screw back in, just rest it on the top of the threads.
Wait a few seconds
Remove dipstick and check level.
This exactly. But add that I run the bike for 3-5 minutes to warm it up before checking the oil level.
How many seconds is a "few?" 5 or 30?
Do not check oil level with the bike on the center stand! Not on the side stand either. Bike must be level, front to back, side to side on both wheels with no rider........
But sounds like you have far bigger problem!!
What do the spark plugs look like???
Smoke out of exhaust??
How many miles do you go to get a quart low?
Cookie
Quote from: twocool on November 02, 2011, 03:13:53 PM
Do not check oil level with the bike on the center stand! Not on the side stand either. Bike must be level, front to back, side to side on both wheels with no rider........
But sounds like you have far bigger problem!!
What do the spark plugs look like???
Smoke out of exhaust??
How many miles do you go to get a quart low?
Cookie
I've read conflicting sets of instructions on how to check the oil - some say to do it on the center stand, and others say to do it while on no stand at all, while the bike is sitting on flat ground. How someone is supposed to comfortably check the oil level with one hand while holding the bike perfectly upright with the other hand beats me, so I decided to go with checking on the center stand. When the dipstick came up showing no oil at all, I panicked, and shifted the balance of the bike from the front wheel to the back wheel (while on center stand), and checked again, but still showed nothing.
I pulled the plugs a month ago, when I replaced the big gasket on the lower left engine case, and they looked perfect. Not too light, not too dark...
I do get smoke out of the exhaust every 2-3 days, when I start up the bike and am letting it warm up. Dark, black smoke, though, not blue. It can be hard to see, though, because I rarely start up the bike in full sunlight (I usually do it in a covered car port or a dark parking structure).
How many miles? I don't really know - haven't been paying attention. I've put 1700 miles on the bike in 2.5 months, so 4 quarts of oil, put in at evenly spaced intervals, would give a rough estimate of 425 miles/quart.
Wont the oil take a min or two to drain back down the the bottom end if its been running for 5mins??
Quote from: Mad Dog on November 02, 2011, 03:28:05 PM
Wont the oil take a min or two to drain back down the the bottom end if its been running for 5mins??
Yes, it will. I'll check the level again, before I leave work, and give the oil time to drain to the bottom after warming the engine up.
Just for the heck of it, why don't you check it before starting just to see where it's at.
Quote from: phendric on November 02, 2011, 02:24:59 PM
How is it, then, that when I went out this morning to check the oil level, the dip stick came out with nothing on it?
Here's your problem. You are checking the oil on a cold motor.
Check your oil level after a ride.
Either on the centerstand or
off the sidestand, it only matters by a mm or two.
Personally, I wait an hour after riding before checking.
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=2808.msg21617#msg21617
Quote from: scratch on November 02, 2011, 04:05:16 PM
Here's your problem. You are checking the oil on a cold motor.
Define "cold motor" please? I said in one of the posts above that I let it run for 3-5 minutes to warm up before checking...
Is it really possible to have so much variation in oil level due to 1) cold engine, 2) center stand vs no stand, 3) not waiting long enough for oil to settle before checking that it can go from being the proper level to not showing at all?
Quote from: phendric on November 02, 2011, 03:23:08 PM
Quote from: twocool on November 02, 2011, 03:13:53 PM
Do not check oil level with the bike on the center stand! Not on the side stand either. Bike must be level, front to back, side to side on both wheels with no rider........
But sounds like you have far bigger problem!!
What do the spark plugs look like???
Smoke out of exhaust??
How many miles do you go to get a quart low?
Cookie
I've read conflicting sets of instructions on how to check the oil - some say to do it on the center stand, and others say to do it while on no stand at all, while the bike is sitting on flat ground. How someone is supposed to comfortably check the oil level with one hand while holding the bike perfectly upright with the other hand beats me, so I decided to go with checking on the center stand. When the dipstick came up showing no oil at all, I panicked, and shifted the balance of the bike from the front wheel to the back wheel (while on center stand), and checked again, but still showed nothing.
I pulled the plugs a month ago, when I replaced the big gasket on the lower left engine case, and they looked perfect. Not too light, not too dark...
I do get smoke out of the exhaust every 2-3 days, when I start up the bike and am letting it warm up. Dark, black smoke, though, not blue. It can be hard to see, though, because I rarely start up the bike in full sunlight (I usually do it in a covered car port or a dark parking structure).
How many miles? I don't really know - haven't been paying attention. I've put 1700 miles on the bike in 2.5 months, so 4 quarts of oil, put in at evenly spaced intervals, would give a rough estimate of 425 miles/quart.
Oil checking....no conflict....do it "by the book" Owner's manual that is.
Warm up bike to normal operating temp. Shut engine off and wait 3 to 5 minutes.
Unscrew oil cap/dipstick
Clean off dipstick with paper towel until dipstick is dry
Insert dipstick into engine but don't screw in...cap just sitting with no threads screwed in
Grap handle bars with two hands and bring bike to vertical off of sidestand.....don't sit on bike
Leave vertical for a few seconds so oil will grab onto dipstick
Let bike down onto sidestand again
remove dipstick and check level..
If you uses 4 quarts in 1700 miles you have big big problem!!!
Some say 1 Quart in 1000 miles is acceptable but I don't think so for bikes.....
My old honda began using like a quart every 500 miles...bad valve guides....and rings...
Your bike is either burning or leaking or both.......
Do a compression test......
Burning oil will usually turn the blugs black and oily
leaking will usually leave engine all wet and oily, and leave oil puddle on garage floor when you park it.
Cookie
Quote from: phendric on November 02, 2011, 04:31:53 PM
Quote from: scratch on November 02, 2011, 04:05:16 PM
Here's your problem. You are checking the oil on a cold motor.
Define "cold motor" please? I said in one of the posts above that I let it run for 3-5 minutes to warm up before checking...
Is it really possible to have so much variation in oil level due to 1) cold engine, 2) center stand vs no stand, 3) not waiting long enough for oil to settle before checking that it can go from being the proper level to not showing at all?
to answer your questions above...No!
Cold engine, sitting overnight will still show oil on dipstick...maybe slightly low, like 1/4" low, but will still show on dipstick. Bike on centerstand will show a little bit low too.....bike leans forward on center stand...so oil goes to front of crankcase...reads low on dipstick, but just a little...
The only danger is improper dipstick reading, is if it reads false low, and you then overfill to compensate.....
If you're coming up with no reading at all on dipstick, you are using oil at a high rate of consumption....big problem!
You do have the correct dipstick? Right??
Cookie
Ok...for everyone who has suggested that I might check the oil a different way than I have already...I checked it three different times once finishing my work day:
1) Before I ever turned on the engine - dipstick showed no oil.
2) After running the engine for ~5 minutes to warm it up, and then shutting it off and waiting for ~3 minutes for the oil to settle - dipstick showed no oil.
3) After riding the 12 miles home, and waiting for an hour - dipstick showed no oil.
So...I think that everyone should be able to agree that the dipstick is showing no oil. Now, back to my original question - WHY?
@Cookie/twocool: how do I tell if I have the correct dipstick? It fits the threaded hole, so the only other thing I could think of is that it's too long or too short. Once the kids are in bed in a few minutes, I'll go out and measure its length.
Quote from: phendric on November 02, 2011, 08:15:58 PM
Now, back to my original question - WHY?
The short answer is if the oil level has gone down you have either leaked it or burned. Some oil consumption is normal. The thing to do now is to fill the bike with oil until it reads full by whatever method you prefer, note the mileage, and see how fast the oil level falls as you ride the bike (make sure you check the oil the same way as the way you filled it). Generally, it is 1 quart between the low and full marks on dipsticks. If the consumptions is excessive, then you have to figure out where it went (bad valve seals, poorly sealing rings, gasket leak...). Good luck :thumb:
-Jessie
Just measured the dipstick in my bike - it's 6.25" from the end of the stick to the beginning of the threads. Can anyone verify that that's how long it should be?
@BaltimoreGS: I'll pay attention to how quickly I'm losing oil when I add more oil either tomorrow or Friday. What is the "normal" consumption rate?
Quote from: phendric on November 02, 2011, 08:15:58 PM
Ok...for everyone who has suggested that I might check the oil a different way than I have already...I checked it three different times once finishing my work day:
1) Before I ever turned on the engine - dipstick showed no oil.
2) After running the engine for ~5 minutes to warm it up, and then shutting it off and waiting for ~3 minutes for the oil to settle - dipstick showed no oil.
3) After riding the 12 miles home, and waiting for an hour - dipstick showed no oil.
So...I think that everyone should be able to agree that the dipstick is showing no oil. Now, back to my original question - WHY?
@Cookie/twocool: how do I tell if I have the correct dipstick? It fits the threaded hole, so the only other thing I could think of is that it's too long or too short. Once the kids are in bed in a few minutes, I'll go out and measure its length.
If your bike is completely stock I don't see why you'd have a bad dipstick. I've personally never heard of someone modifying their dipstick. A broken dipstick is fairly obvious. This would be the first case in every single car and motorcycle I've checked the oil on that the dipstick would be short.
Here's my question. If you're not showing any oil, but you're riding it and the bike's pistons haven't seized, why is the dipstick not showing any oil? If you actually didn't have any oil you'd know it pretty quickly. You'd get down the street, the oil in your cylinders would go away, and you'd hear lots of bad things coming from your engine shortly before it seized up.
By contradiction, I'd say that you DO have oil. In fact, I'd say you have enough oil to drive 12 miles with the dipstick showing no oil and your engine not seizing. There's one way that no one has suggested. Drain your oil. Oil comes out? You have oil (like I suggest). Oil doesn't come out? You're the luckiest son-of-Buddha Loves You alive. Running your bike how you have with zero oil would have definitely destroyed the engine in short order. From there you can figure out why your oil level isn't showing on your dipstick. As stupid as it sounds, is there anything blocking the path of the dipstick to the oil? I don't know how something could've got in there and not screwed something up, but at this point that's just as likely as you have a short dipstick.
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on November 02, 2011, 10:01:00 PMHere's my question. If you're not showing any oil, but you're riding it and the bike's pistons haven't seized, why is the dipstick not showing any oil? If you actually didn't have any oil you'd know it pretty quickly. You'd get down the street, the oil in your cylinders would go away, and you'd hear lots of bad things coming from your engine shortly before it seized up.
By contradiction, I'd say that you DO have oil. In fact, I'd say you have enough oil to drive 12 miles with the dipstick showing no oil and your engine not seizing. There's one way that no one has suggested. Drain your oil. Oil comes out? You have oil (like I suggest). Oil doesn't come out? You're the luckiest son-of-Buddha Loves You alive. Running your bike how you have with zero oil would have definitely destroyed the engine in short order. From there you can figure out why your oil level isn't showing on your dipstick. As stupid as it sounds, is there anything blocking the path of the dipstick to the oil? I don't know how something could've got in there and not screwed something up, but at this point that's just as likely as you have a short dipstick.
I don't think that anyone has suggested that the bike has no oil in it...I certainly haven't. I only said that the dipstick doesn't show any oil. To answer your question about why the dipstick isn't showing oil if the pistons haven't seized yet, that answer seems pretty simple. The oil capacity of the engine is a little over 3 quarts. Yet, as BaltimoreGS pointed out, the difference between the empty mark and the full mark on the dipstick is usually only about a quart. If that hold true for the GS500, then the engine could have about 2 quarts in the engine, enough to keep things decently lubricated, and the pressure high enough that the pressure light doesn't come on, but not high enough to hit the bottom of the dipstick.
It's obvious that I'm losing oil somehow, though - I just don't know how it's happening, which is a bit worrisome.
phendric,
Go to the wiki - http://wiki.gstwins.com - select Maintenance and then How To books. There you'll see a link to an Owners Manual.
Page 6-10 of the manual says...
"The level on the dipstick should be between the L (low) and F (full) lines.
The oil level inspection should be performed under the following conditions:
1. Hold the motorcycle vertically without the center stand.
2. The oil filler cap threads are NOT run in but touching the filler hole upper edge"
It does not say to warm the bike or anything. In fact it also says "Check the oil level with the dipstick, with the motorcycle held vertically on level ground BEFORE each use of the motorcycle."
Okay. Doing it the right was as Suzuki says to do it, you have no reading on the dipstick. As there are no leaks the only possible thing left is, you are burning it off. To help verify, pull out your spark plugs, take a photo and post it here. Or refer to the sparkplug charts below
(http://i.imgur.com/VwCpW.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/NIQmu.jpg)
Michael
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on November 02, 2011, 10:01:00 PM
Quote from: phendric on November 02, 2011, 08:15:58 PM
Ok...for everyone who has suggested that I might check the oil a different way than I have already...I checked it three different times once finishing my work day:
1) Before I ever turned on the engine - dipstick showed no oil.
2) After running the engine for ~5 minutes to warm it up, and then shutting it off and waiting for ~3 minutes for the oil to settle - dipstick showed no oil.
3) After riding the 12 miles home, and waiting for an hour - dipstick showed no oil.
So...I think that everyone should be able to agree that the dipstick is showing no oil. Now, back to my original question - WHY?
@Cookie/twocool: how do I tell if I have the correct dipstick? It fits the threaded hole, so the only other thing I could think of is that it's too long or too short. Once the kids are in bed in a few minutes, I'll go out and measure its length.
If your bike is completely stock I don't see why you'd have a bad dipstick. I've personally never heard of someone modifying their dipstick. A broken dipstick is fairly obvious. This would be the first case in every single car and motorcycle I've checked the oil on that the dipstick would be short.
Here's my question. If you're not showing any oil, but you're riding it and the bike's pistons haven't seized, why is the dipstick not showing any oil? If you actually didn't have any oil you'd know it pretty quickly. You'd get down the street, the oil in your cylinders would go away, and you'd hear lots of bad things coming from your engine shortly before it seized up.
By contradiction, I'd say that you DO have oil. In fact, I'd say you have enough oil to drive 12 miles with the dipstick showing no oil and your engine not seizing. There's one way that no one has suggested. Drain your oil. Oil comes out? You have oil (like I suggest). Oil doesn't come out? You're the luckiest son-of-Buddha Loves You alive. Running your bike how you have with zero oil would have definitely destroyed the engine in short order. From there you can figure out why your oil level isn't showing on your dipstick. As stupid as it sounds, is there anything blocking the path of the dipstick to the oil? I don't know how something could've got in there and not screwed something up, but at this point that's just as likely as you have a short dipstick.
I've seen wrong dipstick installed in cars. Original dipstick gets lost somehow, and backyard mechanic just takes another one from another car in the junkyard. (not likely on gs)...but who knows?
If the diptick shown no reading, it is impossible to know if the crankcase has 3 quarts, or no quarts. (unless you drain remaining oil into a pan and measure volume.
An engine will run surprisingly long time with very little oil...but don't try it.
A healthy GS should use almost no oil between oil changes.....like less than a quart for 3500 miles.
Some say they can't even notice any drop at all between oil changes...
This bike is leaking or burning.........do compression test next...
Cookie
I don't know what Suzuki standards are for acceptable oil consumption but I assume it is something outrageous like Toyota's 1 quart in 1,200 miles. GSJack would be a good person to ask. My old '89 which burns oil goes through about a quart between oil changes.
-Jessie
Quote from: phendric on November 02, 2011, 09:45:06 PM
Just measured the dipstick in my bike - it's 6.25" from the end of the stick to the beginning of the threads. Can anyone verify that that's how long it should be?
@BaltimoreGS: I'll pay attention to how quickly I'm losing oil when I add more oil either tomorrow or Friday. What is the "normal" consumption rate?
Yep....that's correct length dipstick
My old 97 Owners Manual says:
1. Place the motorcycle on level ground on the centerstand.
2. Start the engine and allow it to idle for a few minutes.
3. Stop the engine and wait approximately one minute.
4. Check the oil level. The oil filler cap threads should not be run in but
just touching the filler hole upper edge.
My 02 came slightly used without an OM.
My way copied from a recent post of mine:
I've been checking my oil in 4 Hondas and 2 GS500s the same way for 27 years and 390k miles. I check it in the morning cold after it has sat on the centerstand overnight. I just unscrew and pull the dipstick and check it. If it's low I top it up before heading out to ride.
Way back years ago when my CB750K began to use a lot of oil I became annoyed with the conventional method of checking it hot, it was very hot to handle and as it sat there if you would check it at different times after shutting it down you would get different results. If I checked it after 4 minutes it would show more oil than after 2 minutes for example, hardly an accurate way of doing things. So when I got home I pulled it in, shut it down, and checked it hot on the centerstand after a few minutes and then left it until morning and checked it again in the morning cold. The hot reading was done wiping the dipstick off and putting it in without screwing it in and the cold morning reading was just unscrewing it and pulling and reading it. Seemed to me the amount it screwed in was about equal to the difference between the hot and cold oil volume. Got the same reading close enough that way repeated times. What could be easier.
Regarding oil consumption, both of my high milage GSs have followed the same pattern. For the first 40k miles or so I didn't add oil between 3k mile oil changes and oil consumption increased from little or none when new to being about down to the add mark at 3k mile change time. After that very approx milage point I'd just go to one gallon changes. I'd get a gallon of oil and put three quarts of oil in when changing oil and then add top up oil as required with the remaing quart and change oil again when the gallon was gone. While all the cars I've owned were about 1 quart between the full and add marks I've found that all the bikes I've owned to be more like 1 pint between marks.
As total bike milage increases from 40k-80k miles or so my GSs both used increasingly more oil at higher rpm's, it's more like an oil pump than an engine if you still redline it frequently but ridden moderately I expect my current 02 GS now at 91k miles to go to 100k miles without any serious oil consumption problems.
Having put over 80k miles on my 97 GS and now at 91k miles on my 03 GS I've seen no indication of any valve oil seal problems, they're still as good as new. The consumed oil is getting past the loose fit pistons and rings as wear increases, remember the GS engne was designed back in the 70's and was one of Suzuki's first two 4 stroke designs at that time.
I just want to add to all this: if you are concerned about the bike being level, put a piece of wood or a rock or something under the kickstand. Get it high enough that it is still leaning to the left, but not so much that it begins to tip to the right.
Phendric, there's a lot of irrelevant talk here about the correct way to check the oil, length of dipstick etc.
The point is that even if the dipstick is the wrong length and you're checking it during a full moon on a leap year, it has less oil in it now than it did before = its using oil.
Its either leaking or burning, you have cured the leaks = its burning oil.
Therefore you need to keep adding oil until you get it overhauled (at least new rings, maybe rebore).
IMHO you can have an engine burning a substantial amount of oil without obviously oily looking spark plugs.
Phendric,
It sounds like you're burning oil. Different GS will have different levels of oil consumption, but it's very typical for an air cooled engine to burn some. I'd suggest you start by performing a compression test on the engine. May also be worth performing a leak-down test, though the tester can be a little expensive so it would be worth taking it to a mechanic for that job.
First question: What oil are you running? Different oils have different burn rates.
Consumption on my GS500 was extremely high due to the nature of my riding. I'd burn about a quart every 300 miles or so, and that was with one of the most stable oils available.
Regarding how to check the oil level on the bike: I'm not convinced that there will be a significant difference between checking on the centre stand, and checking with both wheels on the ground, and certainly not enough of a difference to dry a dipstick. To answer the other question, the GS is easy to check on level ground; sit on the bike with a rag in your hand and the dipstick loose. Measure, keeping the bike level using your legs.
Stick your finger up the end of the exhaust, if it comes out black wet and sticky..........you are burning oil.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fuHAcLTFR40/TY5GgzddrTI/AAAAAAAADSM/pF1QkrGvT0Q/Simples_Meerkat.jpg)
Quote from: burning1 on November 03, 2011, 02:13:29 PM...
First question: What oil are you running? Different oils have different burn rates.
Consumption on my GS500 was extremely high due to the nature of my riding. I'd burn about a quart every 300 miles or so, and that was with one of the most stable oils available.
...
+1 :thumb:
My 2001 GS used to burn almost a liter of 10-40W "Mobil" semi-synth oil every 1000 kms.
Actually, every three gas tank top-ups, I had to add cca 1 liter of oil.
(After the valve cover leak and clutch pushrod leak solved) I thought that the problem was with valve seals, but just out of curiosity, I filled the engine with 15-50W "Motorex" semi-synth oil, and the burning just stopped.
After a 1000 kms, the level on dipstick was exactly the same.
After that, I swapped the engine with CBR's, so I don't know if heavier oil permanently solved the problem, but there's an idea... :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: gsJack on November 03, 2011, 07:25:18 AM
My old 97 Owners Manual says:
1. Place the motorcycle on level ground on the centerstand.
2. Start the engine and allow it to idle for a few minutes.
3. Stop the engine and wait approximately one minute.
4. Check the oil level. The oil filler cap threads should not be run in but
just touching the filler hole upper edge.
My 02 came slightly used without an OM.
My way copied from a recent post of mine:
I've been checking my oil in 4 Hondas and 2 GS500s the same way for 27 years and 390k miles. I check it in the morning cold after it has sat on the centerstand overnight. I just unscrew and pull the dipstick and check it. If it's low I top it up before heading out to ride.
Way back years ago when my CB750K began to use a lot of oil I became annoyed with the conventional method of checking it hot, it was very hot to handle and as it sat there if you would check it at different times after shutting it down you would get different results. If I checked it after 4 minutes it would show more oil than after 2 minutes for example, hardly an accurate way of doing things. So when I got home I pulled it in, shut it down, and checked it hot on the centerstand after a few minutes and then left it until morning and checked it again in the morning cold. The hot reading was done wiping the dipstick off and putting it in without screwing it in and the cold morning reading was just unscrewing it and pulling and reading it. Seemed to me the amount it screwed in was about equal to the difference between the hot and cold oil volume. Got the same reading close enough that way repeated times. What could be easier.
Regarding oil consumption, both of my high milage GSs have followed the same pattern. For the first 40k miles or so I didn't add oil between 3k mile oil changes and oil consumption increased from little or none when new to being about down to the add mark at 3k mile change time. After that very approx milage point I'd just go to one gallon changes. I'd get a gallon of oil and put three quarts of oil in when changing oil and then add top up oil as required with the remaing quart and change oil again when the gallon was gone. While all the cars I've owned were about 1 quart between the full and add marks I've found that all the bikes I've owned to be more like 1 pint between marks.
As total bike milage increases from 40k-80k miles or so my GSs both used increasingly more oil at higher rpm's, it's more like an oil pump than an engine if you still redline it frequently but ridden moderately I expect my current 02 GS now at 91k miles to go to 100k miles without any serious oil consumption problems.
Having put over 80k miles on my 97 GS and now at 91k miles on my 03 GS I've seen no indication of any valve oil seal problems, they're still as good as new. The consumed oil is getting past the loose fit pistons and rings as wear increases, remember the GS engne was designed back in the 70's and was one of Suzuki's first two 4 stroke designs at that time.
Read carefully.....
#1 Says "Hold the motorcycle vertically WITHOUT the center stand."
At least my '09 manual says that...........
Cookie
Quote from: the mole on November 03, 2011, 12:59:53 PM
Phendric, there's a lot of irrelevant talk here about the correct way to check the oil, length of dipstick etc.
The point is that even if the dipstick is the wrong length and you're checking it during a full moon on a leap year, it has less oil in it now than it did before = its using oil.
Its either leaking or burning, you have cured the leaks = its burning oil.
Therefore you need to keep adding oil until you get it overhauled (at least new rings, maybe rebore).
IMHO you can have an engine burning a substantial amount of oil without obviously oily looking spark plugs.
Right on! Bike is using too much oil...period.
need to diagnose....
Compression test ...next step...
Cookie
To everyone who has suggested a compression test, I ask: if the bike were really suffering from low compression in one or both cylinders, wouldn't there be a ton of other issues, like trouble starting, low power at speed, etc?
The bike, once warm, is very strong, at both low and high speeds, which makes me think there's no compression problem at all...
@Shepa - Hmmm...how did you ride your bike? Did you push her hard, as I regularly do? I'm using 10-40W semi-synth as well...and you say she burned 1 qt. every 1,000 km (620 miles)? I could be having the same problem...
@Sledge: I put my finger up the exhaust pipe, and it came out black, but not really wet or sticky. It didn't rub off very easily, but with soap and water it came right off.
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4122/gs500exhaustfilm.jpg)
Quote from: phendric on November 03, 2011, 10:19:53 PM...
@Shepa - Hmmm...how did you ride your bike? Did you push her hard, as I regularly do? I'm using 10-40W semi-synth as well...and you say she burned 1 qt. every 1,000 km (620 miles)? I could be having the same problem...
...
Well, there's an old saying I live by: "If you are (too) gentle with your bike, it tends to get lazy and misbehaving. The worse you treat it (by means of riding, not maintenance!), the better it gets."
:icon_mrgreen:
An engine can burn oil and still have reasonable compression, its worth checking but its not a definitive diagnosis.
Bottom line is your bike is burning oil, if you keep topping it up it'll keep running, if you want to get reasonable oil consumption you're going to have to pull it down and at least give it new rings, if not a rebore and new pistons.
if you think your bike is performing well it may have a broken top ring especially if its high milage and previously ridden sedately or worn inlet guides or broken oil ring. the reason i say broken top ring is because bore develops a lip at high milage and a keen young person comes a long revs the ring out of it and piston goes up bore further than normal by a few thou and ring connects with this lip and breaks it and second ring then takes the load.
Quote from: phendric on November 03, 2011, 10:19:53 PM
To everyone who has suggested a compression test, I ask: if the bike were really suffering from low compression in one or both cylinders, wouldn't there be a ton of other issues, like trouble starting, low power at speed, etc?
The bike, once warm, is very strong, at both low and high speeds, which makes me think there's no compression problem at all...
@Shepa - Hmmm...how did you ride your bike? Did you push her hard, as I regularly do? I'm using 10-40W semi-synth as well...and you say she burned 1 qt. every 1,000 km (620 miles)? I could be having the same problem...
@Sledge: I put my finger up the exhaust pipe, and it came out black, but not really wet or sticky. It didn't rub off very easily, but with soap and water it came right off.
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4122/gs500exhaustfilm.jpg)
You are in denial! Coming up with oil level below the low mark, after few miles is a serious problem.........maybe few symptoms now, but more to follow...it is just a matter of time. You can keep riding and adding oil if you want.......probably go many more miles, just using oil...but some day it's going to leave you screwed.
You can use standard diagnostic methods and find the actual problem.....or not....but already the diagnosis is in.....rings and/or valves!
If you want me to tell you you're bike is fine and nothing to worry about, ok, But I would be a liar!
Cookie
Did he ever state the miles he has put on the bike?
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on November 04, 2011, 08:13:57 AM
Did he ever state the miles he has put on the bike?
No. When I bought it, it had 12,300. Now it has just over 14,000. Not many miles at all for a bike that old...
Quote from: twocool on November 04, 2011, 04:51:28 AMYou are in denial! Coming up with oil level below the low mark, after few miles is a serious problem.........maybe few symptoms now, but more to follow...it is just a matter of time. You can keep riding and adding oil if you want.......probably go many more miles, just using oil...but some day it's going to leave you screwed.
You can use standard diagnostic methods and find the actual problem.....or not....but already the diagnosis is in.....rings and/or valves!
If you want me to tell you you're bike is fine and nothing to worry about, ok, But I would be a liar!
You're probably right about my being in denial. I bought a bike to learn on and ride, not worry about and spend a bunch of time fixing - at least, that's what I wanted to do. It's good to know how to diagnose and fix problems, but it's frustrating when you fix two different sources of a problem, just to find that there's another source that's more difficult to detect, diagnose, and fix.
So...I need to do a compression test. I'm familiar with what a compression test actually tests, but why would it be a useful diagnostic tool in this case? And what kinds of compression numbers should I be seeing?
Low compression is an indication of mechanical trouble with the engine. I'd expect to see between 120-150 psi but your more concened with how even the numbers are side to side (usually a 10% variation is acceptable). Remember to hold the throttle wide open while taking your readings. If you get a low reading, add a teaspoon of oil into the spark plug hole and see if the compression rises. If it does, you probably have a piston ring issue. If not, it may be a valve related issue.
-Jessie
Quote from: phendric on November 04, 2011, 09:03:08 AM
Quote from: twocool on November 04, 2011, 04:51:28 AMYou are in denial! Coming up with oil level below the low mark, after few miles is a serious problem.........maybe few symptoms now, but more to follow...it is just a matter of time. You can keep riding and adding oil if you want.......probably go many more miles, just using oil...but some day it's going to leave you screwed.
You can use standard diagnostic methods and find the actual problem.....or not....but already the diagnosis is in.....rings and/or valves!
If you want me to tell you you're bike is fine and nothing to worry about, ok, But I would be a liar!
You're probably right about my being in denial. I bought a bike to learn on and ride, not worry about and spend a bunch of time fixing - at least, that's what I wanted to do. It's good to know how to diagnose and fix problems, but it's frustrating when you fix two different sources of a problem, just to find that there's another source that's more difficult to detect, diagnose, and fix.
So...I need to do a compression test. I'm familiar with what a compression test actually tests, but why would it be a useful diagnostic tool in this case? And what kinds of compression numbers should I be seeing?
Perhaps the first diagnosis was wrong...or perhaps there is (was) more than one problem.
Diagnosis is not difficult...you just follow a step by step procedure.
Repairs are not difficult either...but unfortunately repairs usually involve money, time, and some level of expertise.
If this is just a bike for you to learn how to ride and get some experience riding....maybe just screw it and keep adding oil untill something goes really wrong.....meantime learn to ride on it....then save your $$$ for the next bike....
You could also fix all that is wrong with this bike, but this may not prove to be cost effective....
You could put $2000 into a $500 bike, an you're still left with a $500 bike!
You kind of have to decide which way you want to go.......For example, when my Honda started using oil, I traded it in to the dealer to buy my GS500. Honda was worth $2000 if it wasn't using oil, but dealer only offered me $1000....I took it! I probably could have rebuilt the Honda engine for about $800...but that did not seem cost effective to me.
Same with my last car.....Honda Civic.....started using oil...so what? I kept driving.....used more oil, but still ran good...so I kept driving.....then would run on only 3 cylinders until warmed up (valve guides) so what? ...I kept driving.....finally I figured I better sell before it doesn't run at all.....ran an ad....(told about oil use and rough idle) got many responses....guy came right over and bought the car knowing full well it needed a valve job/new heads.....That job was easy to him....not worth it to me...
Good Luck
Cookie
Quote from: phendric on November 04, 2011, 08:53:54 AM
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on November 04, 2011, 08:13:57 AM
Did he ever state the miles he has put on the bike?
No. When I bought it, it had 12,300. Now it has just over 14,000. Not many miles at all for a bike that old...
You never really know how many miles are on a used bike. Your oil consumption would indicate an engine with many more miles than that. I was wondering about the bikes milage too and also about the oil change history. Did you change the oil and filter when you got the bike? What kind and grade of oil is in it now? If you didn't change the oil yet yourself that would be a good starting point. Put in a good quality oil of 10W-40 or 15W-40 weight and go from there noting how much oil you add and at what milages, you'll get a better feeling of where you stand after that. You can buy a whole lot of oil for less than an engine rebuild and establish a rountine of checking and adding that will insure you don't blow the engine for lack of oil. A compression test of a newly acquired engine/bike is always a good idea.
Quote from: twocool on November 04, 2011, 09:44:31 AMIf this is just a bike for you to learn how to ride and get some experience riding....maybe just screw it and keep adding oil untill something goes really wrong.....meantime learn to ride on it....then save your $$$ for the next bike....
This. I bought the bike because it ran (which a commuter needs), and because I needed something to learn on. It has fit the bill, in both those cases, fabulously.
But the bike has its downsides: besides the fact that it sheds oil like it's burning it instead of gas (ok, not THAT quickly, but still), it's uncomfortable to ride for extended periods of time at Southern California highway speeds (having a helmeted head and chest up in the wind with no protection from the bike gets fatiguing very quickly). And it gets tiring having to wait 5+ minutes for the bike to warm up on a cold day because it's so cold-blooded.
So...I'm already looking for another bike. Found a 1990 GSX-R750 for $700, and it only really needed a thorough carb cleaning to get it running, and running great. The bike still needs a few odds and ends that aren't mechanically related, but necessary for a street bike (like mirrors, turn signals, and registration) before I can start riding it legally and regularly, but if I like it, it will replace the 500. If not, I'll sell it for a small profit, and continue the search for my next bike.
Quote from: phendric on November 04, 2011, 02:44:33 PM
it's uncomfortable to ride for extended periods of time at Southern California highway speeds (having a helmeted head and chest up in the wind with no protection from the bike gets fatiguing very quickly).
You'll be surprised how used you get to wind buffeting :laugh: All my current bikes are naked in the summer (windshields in the winter on 2) and I think nothing of the wind. Your other reasons are all valid but I would recommend getting a season in on this bike before stepping up. Even an old sport bike has a lot of power, you have to learn good throttle control to ride them safely. My 2 cents....
-Jessie
Quote from: phendric on November 04, 2011, 02:44:33 PM
Quote from: twocool on November 04, 2011, 09:44:31 AMIf this is just a bike for you to learn how to ride and get some experience riding....maybe just screw it and keep adding oil untill something goes really wrong.....meantime learn to ride on it....then save your $$$ for the next bike....
This. I bought the bike because it ran (which a commuter needs), and because I needed something to learn on. It has fit the bill, in both those cases, fabulously.
But the bike has its downsides: besides the fact that it sheds oil like it's burning it instead of gas (ok, not THAT quickly, but still), it's uncomfortable to ride for extended periods of time at Southern California highway speeds (having a helmeted head and chest up in the wind with no protection from the bike gets fatiguing very quickly). And it gets tiring having to wait 5+ minutes for the bike to warm up on a cold day because it's so cold-blooded.
So...I'm already looking for another bike. Found a 1990 GSX-R750 for $700, and it only really needed a thorough carb cleaning to get it running, and running great. The bike still needs a few odds and ends that aren't mechanically related, but necessary for a street bike (like mirrors, turn signals, and registration) before I can start riding it legally and regularly, but if I like it, it will replace the 500. If not, I'll sell it for a small profit, and continue the search for my next bike.
Well it seems like you have a good plan.......
But just for the sake of arguement, regarding some of your "problems" above....
Can't wait for 5 minute warm up .... wow! I just start 'er up and leisurly get my gear ready.....jacket, gloves, helmet, crap bungee'd to the rear seat......takes just about 5 minutes...then off to work or whereever........
Riding on the highway in the wind? Well I think you're gonna get that with most bikes...except maybe a "goldwing" type. I lean down at high speeds or in windy conditions.......GS500 is expremely comfortable for me. (20,000 miles in just over a year)
Old bike at cheap price? Needs some "small" details? Hmmm
Maybe good deal...maybe a new can of worms?
just sayin'
Cookie
Don't worry about using oil: just call it a 2 stroke engine :bs:
Quote from: twocool on November 04, 2011, 04:36:42 PMCan't wait for 5 minute warm up .... wow! I just start 'er up and leisurly get my gear ready.....jacket, gloves, helmet, crap bungee'd to the rear seat......takes just about 5 minutes...then off to work or whereever........
Old bike at cheap price? Needs some "small" details? Hmmm
Maybe good deal...maybe a new can of worms?
Like I said, the engine runs really well. I had the top open to check the valve clearances, and the inside of the engine looks pristine. Had to re-jet the carbs, though - the mixture was too rich and fouled the plugs pretty quickly. Mostly what the bike needs it work on the aesthetics - like I said, it's missing turn signals and mirrors, and I'm going to have to paint the plastics, which look like they were sanded down, but the tires are almost new, the battery is new, the oil was recently changed, and the engine runs really well, after a thorough carb cleaning. I took it around the block a couple of times, and boy is she responsive! 60+ mph in 2nd gear, and that was without really revving her hard at all.
As for waiting for the GS to warm up, I'm usually okay with it, but whenever I see other motorcyclists start their bikes and immediately ride off, it makes me wish, just slightly, that I could do the same. I don't have very much to do to get ready to ride, either - tank back snaps on with magnets - so 15 seconds. Helmet and gloves only take about a minute, so then I wait...and wait some more. Good thing I don't live where it really gets cold, right?
Unless one of my bikes has not been ridden for a week, I wait maybe 20 to 40 seconds so I know the engine is happy. If run regularly or lots of times in a day, 5-10 seconds. Basically, enough time to get situated and off I go. If choke is on, I work it off during the first 30 seconds of riding. If I go to the store or gym, usually when I come out I just start (choke usually not needed unless really cold) and take off.
Quote from: phendric on November 05, 2011, 10:19:52 PM
Quote from: twocool on November 04, 2011, 04:36:42 PMCan't wait for 5 minute warm up .... wow! I just start 'er up and leisurly get my gear ready.....jacket, gloves, helmet, crap bungee'd to the rear seat......takes just about 5 minutes...then off to work or whereever........
Old bike at cheap price? Needs some "small" details? Hmmm
Maybe good deal...maybe a new can of worms?
Like I said, the engine runs really well. I had the top open to check the valve clearances, and the inside of the engine looks pristine. Had to re-jet the carbs, though - the mixture was too rich and fouled the plugs pretty quickly. Mostly what the bike needs it work on the aesthetics - like I said, it's missing turn signals and mirrors, and I'm going to have to paint the plastics, which look like they were sanded down, but the tires are almost new, the battery is new, the oil was recently changed, and the engine runs really well, after a thorough carb cleaning. I took it around the block a couple of times, and boy is she responsive! 60+ mph in 2nd gear, and that was without really revving her hard at all.
As for waiting for the GS to warm up, I'm usually okay with it, but whenever I see other motorcyclists start their bikes and immediately ride off, it makes me wish, just slightly, that I could do the same. I don't have very much to do to get ready to ride, either - tank back snaps on with magnets - so 15 seconds. Helmet and gloves only take about a minute, so then I wait...and wait some more. Good thing I don't live where it really gets cold, right?
Even though there's quite a few masochists on this forum that believe carbs are the be-all-end-all the truth is EFI is WAY better. Start, sit for a few seconds so the idle stables out (when it's SUPER cold), and off you go. Nothing beats EFI for fuel injection and efficiency. Absolutely nothing. Especially when carbs mean you have to stand in the cold waiting and then ride and get colder. I ride in all weather, and having a carbed bike makes it almost frustrating sometimes.
I learned to ride on EFI system, understand how to work with it, how it's tuned, and enjoy it on my bikes. But Carbs aren't a big deal. Very reliable. The warmup thing is completely over-blown, and with the enrichment circuit it's not a big deal to get the bike running. No need to warm it up. Start it, give it a second to get the oil pressure up and go. Adjust the choke as needed.
I prefer EFI. More reliable. Nice. But I wouldn't sweat the carbs.
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on November 06, 2011, 12:19:11 AM
carbs mean you have to stand in the cold waiting and then ride and get colder. I ride in all weather, and having a carbed bike makes it almost frustrating sometimes.
Stand in the cold waiting?
You're doing it wrong.
My start up routine on the GS500
- put choke on full
- start bike and let it rev as high as it wants to go
- attach bag to bike, put on jacket
- adjust choke so the bike is revving at 2k
- put on helmet and gloves
- sedately ride off
- a couple of clicks up the road turn choke off completely
No standing around waiting for anything.
My start up routine for my EFi Honda 919
- start bike up and let it rev as high as it wants to go
- attach tank bag, put on jacket
- put on helmet and gloves
- sedately ride off
See that? No difference.
People get too caught up in this warming up schtuff. It's simple, let the bike idle while you put on your gear. Then sedately ride off. How hard is that?
Michael
Old school:
Fuel injection or carb...Let the engine warm up at relitively low rpm.... no load (in neutral) until engine (and oil) is evenly warmed up.....then drive away, gently on the rpm at first....
New school: get fuel injection, start and drive off top speed on cold engine. Install thin oil so it doesn't have to warm up as much.
Old school: most engine wear will happen in those first 5 minutes of driving on cold engine. Warming up engine in neutral at low rpm prevents this engine wear.
New school: Be politically correct! in order to prevent global warming, you must never let engine idle, engine should never run if is machine moving....also must do no warm up.. to achieve good gas mileage average...
New school: I am so f---ing important that 5 minutes is intolerable!
Cookie
Quote from: twocool on November 06, 2011, 04:23:50 AM
Old school:
Fuel injection or carb...Let the engine warm up at relitively low rpm.... no load (in neutral) until engine (and oil) is evenly warmed up.....then drive away, gently on the rpm at first....
New school: get fuel injection, start and drive off top speed on cold engine. Install thin oil so it doesn't have to warm up as much.
Old school: most engine wear will happen in those first 5 minutes of driving on cold engine. Warming up engine in neutral at low rpm prevents this engine wear.
New school: Be politically correct! in order to prevent global warming, you must never let engine idle, engine should never run if is machine moving....also must do no warm up.. to achieve good gas mileage average...
New school: I am so f---ing important that 5 minutes is intolerable!
Cookie
It's a convenience. I introduce unneeded engine wear because my bike runs very lean (it's still stock) and I have to start my bike on full choke and taper down with the engine unloaded. With a fuel injected bike it still has to warm up (and here comes the major parallel) so that engine wear isn't given to the engine BUT I can leave sooner and the engine can idle at the proper RPMs to reduce engine wear.
It truly has nothing to do with global warming or instant gratification and everything to do with embracing the fact regardless of which side of the fence you sit on EFI is better. It can help reduce pollutants and if tuned differently can provide better more reliable fuel/air ratios for a racer. Changing the tuning on EFI is as simple as installing a power commander and putting in a new map which is unlike a carb where you have to take it off, change the jets, test the exhaust output for lean/rich conditions (if you do it right and not the jeri-rigged backyard mechanic way), pull off the carbs, change the jets again, test it again, rinse and repeat. If carbs were truly better, why would every single MotoGP and World Superbike bike have EFI? Spolier alert: it's better.
In the end all the jackbooted old school guys can keep the carbed bikes. I'd much rather pay a grand more for EFI than ever have to deal with carbs again.
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on November 06, 2011, 11:29:09 AM
It's a convenience. I introduce unneeded engine wear because my bike runs very lean (it's still stock) and I have to start my bike on full choke and taper down with the engine unloaded. With a fuel injected bike it still has to warm up (and here comes the major parallel) so that engine wear isn't given to the engine BUT I can leave sooner and the engine can idle at the proper RPMs to reduce engine wear.
It truly has nothing to do with global warming or instant gratification and everything to do with embracing the fact regardless of which side of the fence you sit on EFI is better. It can help reduce pollutants and if tuned differently can provide better more reliable fuel/air ratios for a racer. Changing the tuning on EFI is as simple as installing a power commander and putting in a new map which is unlike a carb where you have to take it off, change the jets, test the exhaust output for lean/rich conditions (if you do it right and not the jeri-rigged backyard mechanic way), pull off the carbs, change the jets again, test it again, rinse and repeat. If carbs were truly better, why would every single MotoGP and World Superbike bike have EFI? Spolier alert: it's better.
In the end all the jackbooted old school guys can keep the carbed bikes. I'd much rather pay a grand more for EFI than ever have to deal with carbs again.
Did you read my start up routine?
For my carburetored GS500 and Fuel Injected 919, my routine is the same. There is no "ride off sooner". And once you are on the road, a partially choked bike does not rev higher compared to the warmed up bike, for the same speeds.
DrMc, it seems you really have a hate on for the GS500. Post after post is you whining about the carbs and the like. So why don't you just sell your horrid bike with carbs and buy yourself a bike with EFI and your angst will be gone and your world will be all flowers and rainbows :thumb:
Short version: Sell it and be done with it and get your precious efi bike - or - keep it and shut the heck up cause incessant whining won't change it.
Michael
Ever notice how a majority of the technical threads end up in an argument about EFI :laugh:
I've done my share of ranting because I think it is a waste of time trying to fab up an EFI system for the GS's antiquated engine, a properly tuned set of carbs work just fine. But overall EFI is the superior set up (especially one with an oxygen sensor in the exhaust so the computer can set fuel trim). If EFI is important to you, you shouldn't have bought a GS ;)
As far as warming up, I'm with Mister. I just ride away with the choke on and turn it off a few miles down the road. I'm a mechanic by trade and understand the engine wear issue. The GS is a cheap commuter bike to me that can be replaced pretty easily, I'm just worried about getting to work in the morning :laugh:
Rant ended
-Jessie
OK.... and now... can we get back on topic please? :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Shepa on November 06, 2011, 12:35:05 PM
OK.... and now... can we get back on topic please? :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
I forget, what was the topic again ? ?
Oh, yeah, somebody, or something , is stealing oil from the op. cuz he's too cheap to install one of those efi thingies ?
Amirite?
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on November 06, 2011, 12:14:24 PM
Ever notice how a majority of the technical threads end up in an argument about EFI :laugh:
I've done my share of ranting because I think it is a waste of time trying to fab up an EFI system for the GS's antiquated engine, a properly tuned set of carbs work just fine. But overall EFI is the superior set up (especially one with an oxygen sensor in the exhaust so the computer can set fuel trim). If EFI is important to you, you shouldn't have bought a GS ;)
As far as warming up, I'm with Mister. I just ride away with the choke on and turn it off a few miles down the road. I'm a mechanic by trade and understand the engine wear issue. The GS is a cheap commuter bike to me that can be replaced pretty easily, I'm just worried about getting to work in the morning :laugh:
Rant ended
-Jessie
I never implied I was going to fab anything up. The cost would outweigh the benefit. I never implied EFI was terribly important to me, all I did was admit my (until purchasing this bike) naivety concerning the finicky nature of carbs. and how
the gs500 drove home the fact EFI is there for a reason. Next weekend I'm finally free to continue rejetting my bike to run way richer than it is (it's super lean) and giving it more breathe-ability through a new exhaust/air filter set up. With the old jets out, I'm sure the bike will run better and warm up "normally". The fact of the matter is carbs are largely an inconvenience to take care. Having to take apart half my bike to diagnose a problem like a SLIGHTLY clogged jet is anything but fun.
As for getting back on topic, there's not much to discuss (which is how we got here).
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on November 06, 2011, 11:29:09 AMIt's a convenience. I introduce unneeded engine wear because my bike runs very lean (it's still stock) and I have to start my bike on full choke and taper down with the engine unloaded. With a fuel injected bike it still has to warm up (and here comes the major parallel) so that engine wear isn't given to the engine BUT I can leave sooner and the engine can idle at the proper RPMs to reduce engine wear.
Lean condition affects the inside of the cylinder, not the stuff outside the cylinder. Engine wear predominantly happens to parts outside the cylinder. Also, carbed bikes tend to run very rich during startup, thanks to the enrichment circuit.
We got into an EFI discussion because I mentioned that I don't like having to wait 5-10 minutes for my bike to warm up before I can ride it. I've tried riding it with the choke still on a bit, and had some success, but largely stopped the practice when I found the engine was still so cold that I killed it several times in a row trying to ride away from a stop light. Giving the engine gas in that situation didn't increase the RPMs, but rather bogged the engine down to the point that it died. After that, I decided that it would be safer, and less annoying for the drivers behind me, to wait until the engine was largely warm. So I wait for 5-7 minutes (longer if it's really cold) until revving the engine does't produce sputtering and back-firing.
As for my preferences with EFI? I've never ridden a bike that has it, but every car I've owned has it, and it's largely "start it and drive it." I've read that many EFY systems on bikes can have some roughness when really opening up the throttle - in this sense, carbs are smoother - but I don't know if that's still true or not. When I was looking to buy my first bike, several people I talked to and who know me told me 2 things: 1) don't get a 250cc because you'll be tired of it very quickly, and 2) get EFI if possible. I didn't go with EFI because I found the GS500 at a pretty cheap price, and because, realistically, I probably didn't have enough $$ to shell out for a bike with it (graduate student with a family, ya know?).
As for getting back on topic, I'm not sure that'll happen until I do a compression test, and start figuring out what the source of oil burning is.
Quote from: Shepa on November 06, 2011, 12:35:05 PM
OK.... and now... can we get back on topic please? :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen:
Back to topic:
Missing oil is still missing!!
Guy got different bike to mess with.
We may never know where the oil went!?
Cookie
Quote from: BaltimoreGS on November 06, 2011, 12:14:24 PM
Ever notice how a majority of the technical threads end up in an argument about EFI :laugh:
I've done my share of ranting because I think it is a waste of time trying to fab up an EFI system for the GS's antiquated engine, a properly tuned set of carbs work just fine. But overall EFI is the superior set up (especially one with an oxygen sensor in the exhaust so the computer can set fuel trim). If EFI is important to you, you shouldn't have bought a GS ;)
As far as warming up, I'm with Mister. I just ride away with the choke on and turn it off a few miles down the road. I'm a mechanic by trade and understand the engine wear issue. The GS is a cheap commuter bike to me that can be replaced pretty easily, I'm just worried about getting to work in the morning :laugh:
Rant ended
-Jessie
Good points! But, why the discussion on Fuel Injection when he GS500 has carbs? (the last time I looked)......
If Suzuki offered a nice 500 cc bike with EFI (but they don't, so this is a stupid discussion, but IF they did) , but it cost $1000 more ...it wouldn't interest me in the least....
$1000 represents 18,000 miles worth of gas to me..........
EFI is better in some respects than carb.....but it is not better in any resepct that matters in the least to me.......
My GS500 has been the perfect bike for me....I have no complaint whatsoever.....the bike exceeded all my expectations.......21,000 miles of trouble free enjoyment and service..
Cookie
Abruptness depends on the EFI system, and one person's abrupt is another person's 'responsive.' Most of the newer premium bikes either use ride by wire technology or a set of secondary computer controlled butterfly valves to soften the initial response to the throttle. On a CV carb like the one in our GS500s, the throttle controls a butterfly valve, but there's a vaccum operated slide that opens more slowly to help keep the engine from bogging down. The slide mellows throttle response significantly.
A set of flat-slide pumper carbs can be about as responsive as a modern EFI system; with them, the rider controls the slide directly, and a fuel pump injects gas as the slide opens to keep the engine from bogging as badly.
Quote from: twocool on November 07, 2011, 05:37:09 AMBack to topic:
Missing oil is still missing!!
Guy got different bike to mess with.
We may never know where the oil went!?
I decided to rejet my carbs today to see if I could get the bike running a little less lean. Went down to my dad's shop to do the work, since he has the space and the tools (and I have very little of either). Got the jets changed, added a couple of washers to the needles, and got everything back together again.
Started the bike, and it immediately put out a TON of dark smoke, the same stuff that it's been putting out every day or two when I start the bike. I pointed the smoke out to my dad who looked at it, got a puzzled look on his face, smelled it, and then immediately announced that the bike is burning oil - that smoke was smoke from burning oil. Couple that with the fact that I put a quart of oil in the bike last week, and it's already low 1/2-3/4 of a quart (with less than 200 miles in the last week), and it looks like we have confirmation that the oil loss is due to burning, rather than a leak.
My dad thinks that one of the sets of rings in the engine is going bad - I don't know which ones they are, just that there are 2 potential sets of rings that could go bad, and it's probably 1 of those sets.
Any idea how expensive replacement rings are?
Quote from: phendric on November 10, 2011, 11:59:01 PM
Quote from: twocool on November 07, 2011, 05:37:09 AMBack to topic:
Missing oil is still missing!!
Guy got different bike to mess with.
We may never know where the oil went!?
I decided to rejet my carbs today to see if I could get the bike running a little less lean. Went down to my dad's shop to do the work, since he has the space and the tools (and I have very little of either). Got the jets changed, added a couple of washers to the needles, and got everything back together again.
Started the bike, and it immediately put out a TON of dark smoke, the same stuff that it's been putting out every day or two when I start the bike. I pointed the smoke out to my dad who looked at it, got a puzzled look on his face, smelled it, and then immediately announced that the bike is burning oil - that smoke was smoke from burning oil. Couple that with the fact that I put a quart of oil in the bike last week, and it's already low 1/2-3/4 of a quart (with less than 200 miles in the last week), and it looks like we have confirmation that the oil loss is due to burning, rather than a leak.
My dad thinks that one of the sets of rings in the engine is going bad - I don't know which ones they are, just that there are 2 potential sets of rings that could go bad, and it's probably 1 of those sets.
Any idea how expensive replacement rings are?
Black smoke is usually richness last I checked. Blue smoke is typically oil, but if your Dad is a mechanic he was probably clued in by the smell and not the color. Oil burning is a very unique smell. You can't miss it.
There are UV dyes most mechanics use on cars to find leaks. After one of the more experienced guys chime in on if you can, see if your Dad has some lying around, you may be inclined to try it. It'll save you tearing down the engine if you can spot it by shining a UV light down a the various holes in the engine to spot leaks.
Quote from: phendric on November 10, 2011, 11:59:01 PM
Quote from: twocool on November 07, 2011, 05:37:09 AMBack to topic:
Missing oil is still missing!!
Guy got different bike to mess with.
We may never know where the oil went!?
I decided to rejet my carbs today to see if I could get the bike running a little less lean. Went down to my dad's shop to do the work, since he has the space and the tools (and I have very little of either). Got the jets changed, added a couple of washers to the needles, and got everything back together again.
Started the bike, and it immediately put out a TON of dark smoke, the same stuff that it's been putting out every day or two when I start the bike. I pointed the smoke out to my dad who looked at it, got a puzzled look on his face, smelled it, and then immediately announced that the bike is burning oil - that smoke was smoke from burning oil. Couple that with the fact that I put a quart of oil in the bike last week, and it's already low 1/2-3/4 of a quart (with less than 200 miles in the last week), and it looks like we have confirmation that the oil loss is due to burning, rather than a leak.
My dad thinks that one of the sets of rings in the engine is going bad - I don't know which ones they are, just that there are 2 potential sets of rings that could go bad, and it's probably 1 of those sets.
Any idea how expensive replacement rings are?
Dude....
We already determined that like 50 posts ago!! You need rings and valves....
Similar job on my Honda, done by local small shop was $800...........
Figure about the same for GS500...maybe less if aftermarket parts are available.....Honda had no after market parts so I had to pay premium honda prices.......
If you do the work yourself (doesn't seem like your up for this) figure $400 for parts...
Just ballpark figures...
Cookie
Quote from: twocool on November 11, 2011, 05:19:56 AM
Quote from: phendric on November 10, 2011, 11:59:01 PM
Quote from: twocool on November 07, 2011, 05:37:09 AMBack to topic:
Missing oil is still missing!!
Guy got different bike to mess with.
We may never know where the oil went!?
I decided to rejet my carbs today to see if I could get the bike running a little less lean. Went down to my dad's shop to do the work, since he has the space and the tools (and I have very little of either). Got the jets changed, added a couple of washers to the needles, and got everything back together again.
Started the bike, and it immediately put out a TON of dark smoke, the same stuff that it's been putting out every day or two when I start the bike. I pointed the smoke out to my dad who looked at it, got a puzzled look on his face, smelled it, and then immediately announced that the bike is burning oil - that smoke was smoke from burning oil. Couple that with the fact that I put a quart of oil in the bike last week, and it's already low 1/2-3/4 of a quart (with less than 200 miles in the last week), and it looks like we have confirmation that the oil loss is due to burning, rather than a leak.
My dad thinks that one of the sets of rings in the engine is going bad - I don't know which ones they are, just that there are 2 potential sets of rings that could go bad, and it's probably 1 of those sets.
Any idea how expensive replacement rings are?
Dude....
We already determined that like 50 posts ago!! You need rings and valves....
Similar job on my Honda, done by local small shop was $800...........
Figure about the same for GS500...maybe less if aftermarket parts are available.....Honda had no after market parts so I had to pay premium honda prices.......
If you do the work yourself (doesn't seem like your up for this) figure $400 for parts...
Just ballpark figures...
Cookie
On your Honda....
If it's a car of course it's going to be through the roof to replace seals. You have to take apart half a car to get to anything useful. That means more labor. Do you really think he needs new valves? New rings maybe, but valves?
Quote from: twocool on November 11, 2011, 05:19:56 AMWe already determined that like 50 posts ago!! You need rings and valves....
Rings and valves? Both? Or valve oil seals and/or piston rings?
Why new valves...?!?
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on November 11, 2011, 12:32:16 AM
Black smoke is usually richness last I checked. Blue smoke is typically oil, but if your Dad is a mechanic he was probably clued in by the smell and not the color. Oil burning is a very unique smell. You can't miss it.
He's not a certified mechanic, or anything, but he has done lots of mechanic work in his life, including dealing with burning oil on some of his own vehicles. The smell was a dead giveaway, but he doesn't have dyes or anything to diagnose the source of the burning. He thinks its the rings/seals because those are the most common problems, but it will take opening the engine up to do a visual check.
Quote from: phendric on November 11, 2011, 09:03:29 AM
Quote from: twocool on November 11, 2011, 05:19:56 AMWe already determined that like 50 posts ago!! You need rings and valves....
Rings and valves? Both? Or valve oil seals and/or piston rings?
Why new valves...?!?
I'm talking Honda motorcycle....
Valves for two reasons....
Smoke on start up then less or no smoke when running means bad valve guides
If you're gonna tear down the engine just to do rings...you might as well replace other stuff Valves, guides etc....which is also probably worn or soon to wear out....
I suppose you could actually spec out and measure everything....if it is within spec tolerance....don't change....
Otherwise you're gonna pay twice for labor when the take it apart again....
We call this a "top end overhaul"
As I said earlier, this bike might not be worth the cost of repair........Good money after bad...maybe better to save the money for something else....
Cookie
Quote from: phendric on November 11, 2011, 09:06:16 AM
He thinks its the rings/seals because those are the most common problems, but it will take opening the engine up to do a visual check.
Not necessarily, phendric. It is still worth doing a compression check to get a better idea whats going on inside before you open it up. Someone on this thread already told you to run the test, then run it again after squirting a bit of oil in each cylinder. If the compression raises after squirting the oil, then you have bad rings. If there is no change, more than likely it is valves.
The UV dyes I'm familiar with are used for tracing external leaks, not for burning oil. As centuryghost said, do a compression test before you start tearing things apart. And decide what the bike is worth to you and how long you plan to keep it before dumping money into it. If you don't plan to keep it long you could try running a heavier weight oil and see if it slows the consumption :thumb:
-Jessie
I still need to do a compression test, but I've been crazy busy and haven't had time to do much non-urgent stuff. I think, somehow, that the bike doesn't start burning oil until I keep it at high RPMs for an extended period of time (i.e., freeway rides). I went on a ride with my dad today, and he rode the GS for awhile. As I followed him on the freeway, I was certain I was smelling burning oil out of the exhaust, even though I hadn't smelled it while following him down the mountain road...
Any particular problems that only manifest themselves in burning oil at high sustained RPMs? I know, I know...do a compression test..
Quote from: phendric on November 26, 2011, 10:53:09 PM
I still need to do a compression test, but I've been crazy busy and haven't had time to do much non-urgent stuff. I think, somehow, that the bike doesn't start burning oil until I keep it at high RPMs for an extended period of time (i.e., freeway rides). I went on a ride with my dad today, and he rode the GS for awhile. As I followed him on the freeway, I was certain I was smelling burning oil out of the exhaust, even though I hadn't smelled it while following him down the mountain road...
Any particular problems that only manifest themselves in burning oil at high sustained RPMs? I know, I know...do a compression test..
I'm pretty sure burning a LITTLE oil at high RPMs is normal. That's why (among other reasons) you should change a track bike's oil every 3 or so track days. The harder you run your engine the more oil you burn/sheer/destroy.
You've got an amazing sense of smell if you can smell burning oil coming out of your exhaust (way behind you) on the freeway going 70+ MPH. You're probably thinking you smell it because you're looking for it. Have someone follow you. They'll DEFINITELY be able to smell it.
Hey everyone, I'm new here (got a naked '08). I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents.
I really abuse my engine, most of my riding (including highway) is done over 6k RPM. I keep it down in the city, but most of the time the bike is working hard. I got my oil changed at 4800km, and by 6800km the dipstick was dry. It took a litre to get it back to full.
I read online that the GS500 is notorious for burning the stuff. I also read (not sure if it's true or not) that Suzuki says 1 litre per 1000km is acceptable? At any rate, next time it's in the shop I'll talk to the mechanic about it and see if anything needs to be done.
Oh, and I read a post online somewhere about someone having the same problem, burning a ton of oil. He said he now keeps it under 6k RPM and it's perfectly fine. But where's the fun in that? :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: tricky on November 27, 2011, 11:51:28 AM
Hey everyone, I'm new here (got a naked '08). I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents.
I really abuse my engine, most of my riding (including highway) is done over 6k RPM. I keep it down in the city, but most of the time the bike is working hard. I got my oil changed at 4800km, and by 6800km the dipstick was dry. It took a litre to get it back to full.
I read online that the GS500 is notorious for burning the stuff. I also read (not sure if it's true or not) that Suzuki says 1 litre per 1000km is acceptable? At any rate, next time it's in the shop I'll talk to the mechanic about it and see if anything needs to be done.
Oh, and I read a post online somewhere about someone having the same problem, burning a ton of oil. He said he now keeps it under 6k RPM and it's perfectly fine. But where's the fun in that? :icon_mrgreen:
My bike is going on 2000 miles (3200~ km) since it's last oil change. My dipstick isn't dry, but it reads about halfway up the dipstick. I run my bike moderately hard, I tend to shift at higher RPMs and I leave my bike in a gear lower than the "cruising" gear for the road for quick get aways. I never hold it steady at anything above 6k for any amount of time, however.
I've been religiously checking my oil, and if I let the bike warm up for 10 minutes (as the haynes manual suggests) then stop the bike and give it 5 minutes to cool down the oil will read full. Of course, I'm following the proper procedure (resting on cap threads, bike suspended upright by the rider and not by the center stand, etc).
You have to remember bikes are MUCH harder on oil than cars and the GS500 is no exception. Not only is the entire crankcase immersed in the stuff the bike (04+ I believe) is also cooled by the oil which may or may not compound the problem of oil loss. Out of every bike I've worked on, had, or a friend has had, the GS500 has had the shortest time-to-change interval on oil knowing full well that my bike doesn't have anything that would scream OIL BURNER happening to it.
Speaking of which...I'm due for another oil change soon...
EDIT:
I'm running Motul 5100 10w40, I might try a heavier oil at the next oil change and see how that affects things.
Very true. The GS500 are definitely oil burners.
QuoteI've been religiously checking my oil, and if I let the bike warm up for 10 minutes (as the haynes manual suggests) then stop the bike and give it 5 minutes to cool down the oil will read full.
Why the Haynes manual? Why not follow the oil-checking-procedure as written by the people who made the bike (Suzuki)... upright and Cold? It's their creation. Surely they would know best how to check the oil.
Michael
Quote from: mister on November 28, 2011, 01:16:29 AM
QuoteI've been religiously checking my oil, and if I let the bike warm up for 10 minutes (as the haynes manual suggests) then stop the bike and give it 5 minutes to cool down the oil will read full.
Why the Haynes manual? Why not follow the oil-checking-procedure as written by the people who made the bike (Suzuki)... upright and Cold? It's their creation. Surely they would know best how to check the oil.
Michael
???
My Suzuki owner manual says check oil with engine warmed up, and then off for a couple minutes for the oil to settle...did earlier manuals give different directions?
Hot oil will read higher than cold oil......if you fill to full when cold, it will read over full when hot...
Does it really matter??? Probably the difference is too little to matter...
Cookie
Quote from: twocool on November 28, 2011, 05:50:35 AM
Quote from: mister on November 28, 2011, 01:16:29 AM
QuoteI've been religiously checking my oil, and if I let the bike warm up for 10 minutes (as the haynes manual suggests) then stop the bike and give it 5 minutes to cool down the oil will read full.
Why the Haynes manual? Why not follow the oil-checking-procedure as written by the people who made the bike (Suzuki)... upright and Cold? It's their creation. Surely they would know best how to check the oil.
Michael
???
My Suzuki owner manual says check oil with engine warmed up, and then off for a couple minutes for the oil to settle...did earlier manuals give different directions?
Hot oil will read higher than cold oil......if you fill to full when cold, it will read over full when hot...
Does it really matter??? Probably the difference is too little to matter...
Cookie
09 manual.... page 6-10....
===
ENGINE OIL LEVEL CHECK
Check the engine oil level with the engine oil dipstick. The dipstick comes out together with the oil filler cap as shown. The level on the dipstick should be between the "L" (Low) and "F" (Full) lines.
The oil level inspection should be performed under the following conditions:
1. Hold the motorcycle vertically without the center stand.
2. The oil filler cap threads are not run in but touching the filler hole upper edge.
CAUTION
The engine oil level must be between the "L" (Low) line and "F" (Full) line, or engine damage may occur.
Check the oil level with the dipstick, with the motorcycle held vertically on level ground
before each use of the motorcycle.
===
Michael
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on November 27, 2011, 11:36:03 AM
I still need to do a compression test, but I've been crazy busy and haven't had time to do much non-urgent stuff. I think, somehow, that the bike doesn't start burning oil until I keep it at high RPMs for an extended period of time (i.e., freeway rides). I went on a ride with my dad today, and he rode the GS for awhile. As I followed him on the freeway, I was certain I was smelling burning oil out of the exhaust, even though I hadn't smelled it while following him down the mountain road...
You've got an amazing sense of smell if you can smell burning oil coming out of your exhaust (way behind you) on the freeway going 70+ MPH. You're probably thinking you smell it because you're looking for it. Have someone follow you. They'll DEFINITELY be able to smell it.
Reread. His dad was on the GS and he was following.
09 manual.... page 6-10....
===
ENGINE OIL LEVEL CHECK
Check the engine oil level with the engine oil dipstick. The dipstick comes out together with the oil filler cap as shown. The level on the dipstick should be between the "L" (Low) and "F" (Full) lines.
The oil level inspection should be performed under the following conditions:
1. Hold the motorcycle vertically without the center stand.
2. The oil filler cap threads are not run in but touching the filler hole upper edge.
CAUTION
The engine oil level must be between the "L" (Low) line and "F" (Full) line, or engine damage may occur.
Check the oil level with the dipstick, with the motorcycle held vertically on level ground before each use of the motorcycle.
===
Michael
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure the owner's manuals are quite different countries!!
I have 09 manual for USA Doesn't even have a page 6-10....AND two more steps in the process!!!
Oil level check is on page 7-11..
ENGINE OIL LEVEL CHECK
Check the engine oil level with the engine oil dipstick. The dipstick comes out together with the oil filler cap as shown. The level on the dipstick should be between the "L" (Low) and "F" (Full) lines.
The oil level inspection should be performed under the following conditions:
1. Hold the motorcycle vertically without the center stand.
2. Start the engine and allow it to idle for a few minutes.
3 Stop the engine and wait three minutes.
4. Check the oil level. The oil filler cap threads should not be run in but just touching the filler hole upper edge.
CAUTION
The engine oil level must be between the "L" (Low) line and "F" (Full) line, or engine damage may occur.
Check the oil level with the dipstick, with the motorcycle held vertically on level ground before each use of the motorcycle
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on November 27, 2011, 11:36:03 AM
You've got an amazing sense of smell if you can smell burning oil coming out of your exhaust (way behind you) on the freeway going 70+ MPH. You're probably thinking you smell it because you're looking for it. Have someone follow you. They'll DEFINITELY be able to smell it.
My dad was riding the GS, and I was following behind him. I think I said that in the post...
This is interesting.
My '02 is almost burning oil as fast as yours is.
Going to do compression test, adjust valves, clean carbs, and check spark plugs soon.
Quote from: xtelevisionset on December 01, 2011, 12:18:53 AM
This is interesting.
My '02 is almost burning oil as fast as yours is.
Going to do compression test, adjust valves, clean carbs, and check spark plugs soon.
By all means do the valves, carbs, and plugs...but don't expect any less oil consumption due to these.
Compression test is simply a diagnostic tool, to help determine the cause of high oil consumption.
Unfortunately the cure for high oil consumption is engine rebuilding. (valves, rings, cylinders etc..)
Cookie
Quote from: twocool on December 01, 2011, 06:38:04 AM
Quote from: xtelevisionset on December 01, 2011, 12:18:53 AM
This is interesting.
My '02 is almost burning oil as fast as yours is.
Going to do compression test, adjust valves, clean carbs, and check spark plugs soon.
By all means do the valves, carbs, and plugs...but don't expect any less oil consumption due to these.
Compression test is simply a diagnostic tool, to help determine the cause of high oil consumption.
Unfortunately the cure for high oil consumption is engine rebuilding. (valves, rings, cylinders etc..)
Cookie
Or in the case of the GS500, buying a new bike.
Just checked my oil level again today... it hit the "low" marker. This time I made it 2300km :icon_lol: It's a thirsty machine
Quote from: Dr.McNinja on December 01, 2011, 09:46:36 PM
Quote from: twocool on December 01, 2011, 06:38:04 AM
Quote from: xtelevisionset on December 01, 2011, 12:18:53 AM
This is interesting.
My '02 is almost burning oil as fast as yours is.
Going to do compression test, adjust valves, clean carbs, and check spark plugs soon.
By all means do the valves, carbs, and plugs...but don't expect any less oil consumption due to these.
Compression test is simply a diagnostic tool, to help determine the cause of high oil consumption.
Unfortunately the cure for high oil consumption is engine rebuilding. (valves, rings, cylinders etc..)
Cookie
Or in the case of the GS500, buying a new bike.
LOL......Yep.....doesn't make sense to put $1200 or more into a $2500 bike! Car insurance has some sort of "magic number", where they "total" the car. I think it is when damages go to 80% of the "value"....
Cookie
Quote from: tricky on December 01, 2011, 09:52:29 PM
Just checked my oil level again today... it hit the "low" marker. This time I made it 2300km :icon_lol: It's a thirsty machine
If all else is running well...
At this point it probably makes the most $$$ sense to keep feeding it oil......But I'd only let it go half way down the dipstick before topping off....
Only costing an additional 1/3 of a cent per mile!
Time to think about selling bike to buy a new or different one....or maybe trade in to dealer (this is what I did with a Oil hog Honda) ...
Then just try to decide how "honest" you're gonna be to the prospective buyer. Someone who rides just 10 or 20 miles on weekends wouldn't even notice the oil useage. Someone who commutes every day would really notice and be pissed at you if you failed to mention the problem.
Cookie
your spark plugs must look like coal with all that oil .What grade of spark plugs you running in that oil burner?
Quote from: twinrat on December 03, 2011, 12:36:19 AM
your spark plugs must look like coal with all that oil .What grade of spark plugs you running in that oil burner?
I assume the stock OEM ones :dunno_black:... The bike is a 2008, I got it in June with only 3700km on it, so it hadn't been used much at all. The odometer is nearing 9200km now. I got a list of things to do this winter.. included in that is changing the spark plugs. I'll be sure to post picks when I do, so we can see what's what
Am I looking at any sort of long-term engine damage if I'm burning this much oil? Or is it harmless?
Yeah, I just bought my bike, and I'm afraid there may be some engine damage.
At around 2000 rpm I get a sort of knocking from the bottom end and the RPM's drop a bit and then pick back up.
This is not rhythmic, but seems to happen randomly.
Just gotta put in at least 33,000 miles before I label it as junk.
Everything else about it runs fine, except sometimes I get a power loss.
Like, say I'm in 6th gear and trying to pass a car going about 70mph. I go full throttle and it just hangs sometimes and won't accelerate, putting you in a dangerous situation in the other lane.
Other times it's completely healthy and will climb quickly all the way up to 110.
Quote from: tricky on December 03, 2011, 01:00:35 PM
Am I looking at any sort of long-term engine damage if I'm burning this much oil? Or is it harmless?
As long as it is not starving for oil (keeping it topped off) you shouldn't have any sudden catastrophic engine damage. Depending on how bad the blow by is, you could develop oil leaks and the oil can become degraded by gasoline.
-Jessie
I think phendric has moved on and is playing with his new toy...
Later.