Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine is the most relevent documentary I have ever seen.  It will blow you away, so go out and rent it if you haven't already seen it.

What's it about? That shooting a few years back?...

It's about firearms and media.

I agree Piper, it's an important  movie I think everybody should see.

Don't let the name fool you, it's not only about the school shooting. If you haven't watched it yet, rent it!

John

Stay in Canada.  You'll be safe. :guns:

*cough*left wing socialist propaganda*cough*

Great docu/film personally i prefer his book
"Stupid White Men"  

La

Quote from: Piper5177Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine is the most relevent documentary I have ever seen.  It will blow you away, so go out and rent it if you haven't already seen it.

the problem is, is it's not a true documentary. there are significant works of fiction in it. for example, where he gets the hunting rifle at the bank, the bank usually makes people go through a waiting period, but his assistants called ahead and arranged for him to be able to pick up the rifle the same day he walked in. this is a confirmed incident that roger ebert uncovered looking into this film. the big problem is that michael moore was selling this as a strict documentary this whole time, after this came to light he eventually fessed up to it (after a lot of purial screaming). at that point the film ceased to have credability, because if he fudged that and lied about it, what else did he lie about?

i will also say what i always say. a gun is a tool, and like any tool it can do anything when someone uses it, and that person decides whether to go good or harm. people were brutally killing each other before guns ever showed up. our society needs to start excerising personal responsability.

If you think that was a documentary you are seriously deluded...

:guns:

stretching the story is one thing, he did that a bit

but the underlying facts presented themselves well in the movie.  i walked away in a state "shock and awe"

we are in a country of fear and aggression and stroking

many many people driving their SUVs hauling their toys around and talking on the phone are doing that because they feel the DESERVE this, even though thier debt is outragous and if you threaten ther RIGHT to drive they will cut you off and swerve into your lane

come on, one of the great appeals to the GS500e is that it's so damed utilitarian.  you don't need much more and much less you wouldn't be able to function on todays roads.

a  hayabusa would and is fun to think about, but i don't need it.  I'm  so fuckin liberal it's crazy .  so have what ever you want but because you do, it doesn't give you a right to make my life miserable and cut me off and drive up insurance costs.

i think too many cunfuse what they have a right to, and what they feel they deserve  ........  like guns

classless society I tell you

every bike should be nothing more and nothing less than a gs500


i wann move to canada and ride there at times.

people of the US respond to mistakes with aggression, not forgiveness ...geezez

today, i got cut off because someone wanted the gas pump i was heading to, goota have gotta get my fuel to drive my lincoln navigator so i feel i have the right to puch that littl emotorcycle out of my path i guess

how are people gunna repond to gas prives today, my money says there will be a story about a fight at the gas pumps in the next weekend.  instead maybe people shoudl stay at home, instead of terrorizing me and my wife for fun in our canoe with your jet ski, we saw you laughing you piece of shaZam! living off daddies money last weekend at the lake.



any canadians out there, what is your take on this?

wow, look at what you just read. you basically advocating a socialist society, where everyone is equal and everything is utilitarian. classless society worked out great for soviet russia, didn't it?  

the issue is, the moment you "stretch" a documentary, it is no longer a documentary, it is a work of fiction. the moment he lied, he and his documentary lost credability since we can no longer believe what he's telling us is actually the truth. it may still be an insteresting story, but it can no longer be accepted as truth.

the right to bear arms is a right as defined with the bill of rights. it's more of a right than to drive suv's or motorcycles. until you get the bill of rights changed, you're simply incorrect.

zoltan, can you honestly say you know what a socialist society is, what utilitarianism is

the bill of rights was written to defend our COUNTRY, not the right to pull a gun on someone because they cut you off or their dog pissed on your lawn

Quote from: klimberzoltan, can you honestly say you know what a socialist society is, what utilitarianism is

the bill of rights was written to defend our COUNTRY, not the right to pull a gun on someone because they cut you off or their dog pissed on your lawn

yes, i can honestly say that i do, you however, apparently can not.

no, the bill of rights was written to defend the people from the government.

in your inflammitory example, it's still not the gun's fault that it was drawn and used unjustly, it's the person's fault who used it. if not for a gun, then a knife, a baseball bat, a car, etc. it's irresponsible to say that it's a gun's fault something bad happened, it's the fault of the person holding the gun.

interesting how the UK, with it's total ban on guns, still continues to lead the US in criminal acts per capita and violent crime per capita, and continues to climb in both categories. their number of violent crimes commited with a gun also continues to rise.

Quotethe moment he lied, he and his documentary lost credability since we can no longer believe what he's telling us is actually the truth. it may still be an insteresting story, but it can no longer be accepted as truth.

Exactly! Just like George Bush lying about Iraq importing uranium from Africa. How could you guys ever trust him again?

As far as the movie goes, haven't seen it yet but will. I agree with Moore though I wouldn't take anything in any documentary as being 100 percent true. It is entertainment. Everyone does something for a reason, to prove some point, so there will always be a bias in it.

zoltan, you can believe what you want, just as much as i can.  i've lost two friends to unjustified  violence and don't want to go there.   we obviously disagree on this but at least we can agree on gs500's which is what this site is about.  i'm steppin off my soap box.  there must be a political science chat room somehwere to hash out worlds probelms on.  

didn't mean to piss any one off,  an i'm still gunna wave to every harley rider wether they wave back or not.  

later

Well, as much as I'd like to say Canada is as perfect as it's portayed in the movie, it's not. We have our share of crime and such too, and don't move here to escape bad drivers because we have them in abundance!  :guns:

As slightly unrealistic it's perfect view of Canada was, I'm sure it was at least as unrealistic with it's portayal of the US. Most of the people he interviewed were people who weren't intelligent enough to make it on the Springer show.

The reason I think it's important is mainly because of what it shows is going on with kids...and we've all seen the news stories, so we know that's not a fabrication. When there's kids going into schools(or wherever) and gunning people down, there's something SERIOUSLY wrong with that picture...no matter what country it happens to be in...and yes, it's happened in Canada too.

I think part of the problem is that people seem to live life like they're in a movie, and they don't really consider the consequenses of their actions. If you want an example of that, just look around you when you ride. The way people drive these days, it's quite obvious most of them have no concept of just how serious what they're doing is. Hurtling down the road in a several thousand pound machine and talking on the phone...or eating...or even READING (yes, I've seen people reading while they were driving). They don't realize (or just don't worry about it) that a moment's inattention could quite easily kill them and several other people....or cripple them for life.

I think it's the same sort of thing with guns. Cars are quite safe in the right hands, and so are guns. Problem is, sometimes the wrong people in a (usually drunken) rage will go grab the gun when somebody pisses them off and start shooting. At that moment they're not thinking "hmm...well...he(or she) has really pissed me off. If I shoot them, I could kill them, or at the very least seriously injure them, and it's not THAT big an issue I guess. Besides, I could spend the rest of my life in jail if I do." If people DID think about it, they likely wouldn't do it in most cases.

Again..just like cars. Do you think the person who runs somebody off the road because they just HAVE to pass that car so they can save 10 seconds on their trip home is thinking rationally?

People just need to think more is all....and give a shaZam! about each other.  


John

A gun doesn't kill someone when it's just lying on the coffie table.

The only purpose for speech is to convince. The film is trying to convince you (I haven't seen it).

Feel free to watch the show, but remember you are free to watch it because of firearms. The US has a bloody history. The freedoms we enjoy, including mister Moore's and our freedom to discuss this issue is due to the fact that many people sacrificed thier personal safety and lives so that future generations would be free to live as they see fit.

I think the real tragedy of modern America is how much we've allowed the individual to scapegoat responsability of their own actions. I'm a firm believer in individual freedom and as such I belive in the profound importance of individual responsability.

Did this "documentery" mention all of the progressive social reforms they were attempting at the school? Such as classes on developing indiviual morality? This kids were doing just as they were taught. They were forming a set of morals that satisfied them without regard for the rest of the worlds. condition.

Did he also mention the explosives they made? And that if they had not had the guns and had gone to their explosives that the death toll would have been much higher? In this "documentery" how much time was spent researching all of the related issues and how much was spent witch-hunting and individuals right to protect themselves from the oppression and violence of others?

Had a single person in that school been allowed to carry a protective firearm how likey do you think those kids whould have been to stroll down the halls shooting at people knowing at any second someone might be shooting back? And how well were the police able to compensate for this lack of protection?

Just because it's wrapped in a fancy package, don't let a movie, or TV show, or a book, or a newspaper, convince you that they know whats right. Research everything think for yourself. If you still are for an impotent sociallist society that's fine. But don't think that just because someone else said so.

Look at countries that have banned firearms, England, Austraila. Since doing so crime, especially fire-arms related, has been on a steady climb. For the 1st time in history every member of the British police force now has to have a sidearm.

Look at states of the union who have passed concealled carry laws. Violent crime as dropped signifigantly in Florida since passing theirs. Nobody starts shaZam! in Texas because everyone knows that MOST people have a gun.

In these cases the vast majority of RESPONSABLE citizens keep the irrisponsable ones in fear of retribution reducing their likelyhood to lash out at those around them.

I'll leave you with a couple of my favorite quotes: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin"

This one is translated and from memory so may not be 100% accurate.

"For the first time a nation has complete gun registration. This will increase the effectiveness of our police forces and pave the way for future reform. The rest of the world will follow in the footsteps of our progress!" Hitler - 1939

THANK YOU, ZOLTAN!

Those are beautiful words. Right on.

-Anti

Canada is unfortunately too close to the US, and we have a lot of influence from the media and trade.

The murder rate in Canadian cities is about 1/10 that in comparable cities in the US. It is partly the US gun culture allowing easy access to hand guns. Humans are rational only a very small percentage of their waking hours. Allowing easy access to a device that can kill as easily as a hand gun will result in a high murder rate.

The American culture does embrace violence in a very disturbing way. From a slightly outside perspective, when I watch American movies, I am always shocked at the casual shooting, explosions, deaths and violence that is such a part of most of them. When I watch European, Mexican, South American or Canadian movies, they are mostly about the human experience, and generally have every little violence or shooting. I always think what an alien would think of the US from watching their movies...

Someone made the comment above that access to guns is supposed to protect the US citizens from the goverment. Maybe that was the hope 200 years ago. Do you actually think having public access to hand guns is going to have any influence on a government that controls a military that is several times more powerful than the rest of the world's combined? Access to hand guns only breeds violent death.

I think you will have trouble finding too many unlocked doors in Toronto at night, as Moore tried to sell in his movie. It isn't a true documentary, but the US media is so skewed the other way generally that only a warped mirror has any hope of reflecting the truth.

The US people generally seem to be so convinced that they have the greatest country in the world, they are not keen to accept any criticism. Having the highest infant mortality rates of any developed country, the highest incarceration rates, the highest violent crime rates, the lowest % of people with acceptable health care, huge areas of cities that are off-limit ghettos, the highest income disparity that results in a large poor population in such a rich country, the wastefulness, militarism and many other factors makes it look like a culture in crisis to me.

It is very scary that the US has such a dominant military and the need to bend the world to it's resource needs to fuel this aggressive, wastefull violent culture.