Oh yah, by crazy, I emant I think its strange to be able to carry around something designed so specifically to take the life of another human, like its a wallet. In truley do think its odd, and I bet many european, and Canadian forumers will agree. You guiys dont need to get bent over it. Its just an opiniopn. So ease off. And if you want some statistics, I might be able to scrounge some up. I think its not neccisary, but who knows.
Just dont get angry and shoot me when I take my yearly ride through California. God, guns scare me. I just have a problem with it, thats all there is too it. No disrecpect inteneded. It is in your constitution, and who can argue with the US constitution right? JUst kidding... A little peace will help us all.

Quote from: Rich500Oh yah, by crazy, I emant I think its strange to be able to carry around something designed so specifically to take the life of another human, like its a wallet. In truley do think its odd, and I bet many european, and Canadian forumers will agree. You guiys dont need to get bent over it. Its just an opiniopn. So ease off. And if you want some statistics, I might be able to scrounge some up. I think its not neccisary, but who knows.
Just dont get angry and shoot me when I take my yearly ride through California. God, guns scare me. I just have a problem with it, thats all there is too it. No disrecpect inteneded. It is in your constitution, and who can argue with the US constitution right? JUst kidding... A little peace will help us all.

I totally agree with you. I've lived in the UK and live in Australia now.
I used to think it was really weird for cops to carry guns.

I can see the point about wanting to protect yourself, but I'd much rather live in a society when you don't have to carry a gun for protection.

I don't think being able to carry concealed weapons makes you any safer or guarentees your freedom.

/\---Excellent post. I agree completely. Its almost a chain reaction. people buy guns, carry them around, others feel unsafe without a gun to protect against those wwith, so they buy a gun, and soon, you have quite a few guns casually strolling around. Cops in Canada carry guns, and that doesnt amke me nervous as much. Im just stunned, like someone else said earlier, how casual this conversation is. Its fascinating really. I live an hour from the American border, but in some ways, I live a whole world away.

After reading this discussion on whether to carry or not and if so how?  I can only speak from experience.  I was a motor cop for 5 years and didn't have to carry concealed but did have to use it in the line of duty.  The thing about any weapon is if you can't get to it when you need it then there's no real reason to carry one.  If you are going to carry, and a lot of people do, then you need to train with it so as not to end up shooting yourself with it.  I'm also a firearms instructor and the sad statistic is that the average officer who is involved in a gun fight that dies is killed by his/her own weapon the majority of the time.  The hit ratio is about 11% for LEO's versus the bad guys of 60%.  That stems from the fact that in most cases LEO's are reacting to a situation and are always behind the decision of the bad guy to use deadly force.  I don't know what the stats are for civilians.  I do know that if you move when being shot at you increase your chances of survival by 70%, being on a bike and moving (i.e. hauling @**) should improve your chances even more.  Something I always tell my students is that the best defensive tactics tool that you possess is between your ears.  Use common sense!  When entering any area where you feel uncomfortable do not linger and leave the area immediately.  

As to the question of how to carry if you do chose to do so leaglly, the DeSaints Belly Band is a good option as it allows you to carry in a manner that usually doesn't constrict your movement.  I'd hate to leave a weapon on a bike and then return to find the bike and the weapon stolen.

www.shootersden.com/Desantis/catalog/style60.htm - 3k -

One good rule of thumb to remember, if you are stopped by the Po Po, please make sure to inform them in a non threatening manner that you are carrying a concealed weapon.  You may still find yourself face down on the asphalt until the officer dispells any alarm, but if you are carrying it in compliance with your local and state law then there shouldn't be a problem.  

The decision to carry any type of weapon is one that must be made with the understanding of the law and using good judgement taking the totality of your situation and personality into consideration.

Just a voice of experience.   Ride safe!    

Also, keep in mind.  a Concealed Weapon doesnt have to be A Fire arm. If i have to pull a weapon i would rather hurt (severly) then kill, im not afraid of Guns and have been through the CWC (just ran out of cash to send it in)  I favor a colapsable ASP or some other extending weapon.  i have been shot at before, taken knives away from others and dodged baseball bats, worn a couple too. 90% of those encounters i never had to hurt the other person IF i even had to touch them. the Gun i just didnt move, i have found most with guns dont want to take life if they can get away without doing so.(im also of the mind if you shoot me, You better kill me) Knives, most just think they are bad ass and are scrapers but are too fearful of or cant afford to get/have/get caught with a gun. once disarmed (the tricky part) they are no different from you fist to fist  and 2' of telescoping weighted tube helps level the feild. one good crack to the wrist/knee cap often changes thier outlook of the moment. Baseball bats! watch out for the wooden ones they break things, but easyer to get under. the aluminum ones Hurt like hell, but takes a few more shots to do same damage. the lighter weight gives them better recovery time, trust me on this.  best bet on all cases is to RUN your ass off, or get into an area where there is a bunch of people, most deviants dislike witnesses.


ive totaled in my 31 years aprox 14 fights, 4 of them in Jr high,5 in highschool and 5 through jobs and drunks.   out of all them, i had to hurt 2 minorly and put 4 in hospital to get them to stop.   the gun man, he changed his mind and left.  

while working in a pawn shop in miami, i was required to carry while on property and i carried when i did bank runs.  only once did i pull my gun on someone, cuz he walked in carrying a shot gun in the wrong way (uncovered and cross his body in both hands)  though he was there to pawn the gun and quickly understood and the gun.  I was ready to do what i had to do. and let me tell you you want to talk about messed up body chemistry? for 2 days my system was screwed yup from the chemical dump.  Some of you will know what im talking about.  

oh well.

Um back to the original post, WHAT THE HECK WOULD YOU NEED A GUN FOR WHILE RIDING!?!?!?!?!  
I've ridden through Harlem, and that thought had never even come remotely close to entering my mind. Keep it in the firing range, cowboy. :dunno:

I have had my CW permit whenever legally possible in my state of residence for the last 6 years.    All of my weapons stay locked.  I've slept with a loaded weapon in the house three nights: twice when I heard shots in my neighborhood, and once when the end-game was going down with the D.C. sniper (longshot, but it made me feel safer).  I have only carried about 10 or 15 times that I can remember mainly for the following reasons:

1. In most states you have a legal obligation to FLEE any potential attacker when in public.  This means that even if someone is trying to kill you, you can't try to kill them until you try to run away.. only when you are cornered can you legally defend yourself.

2. It can escallate a fist-fight to a deadly encounter.  If some guy wants to tackle me and scrap for a while, so be it.  But if he tackles me and we start scrummin' and my gun gets lose, I can be held at least partially responsible for whatever goes wrong (since I introduced the deadly weapon)... or I can be dead.

3. Some states have equal force laws, which means that if I'm attacked with a baseball bat, I can't legally reciprocate with a pistol.  I have to reciprocate with "equal force".  I've been told that PA is one of these states  

Overall carrying may put you in a better position to defend yourself, but it can be a legal beeeeyotch to get exonerated when you use it because of laws/situations like the ones listed above.

Quote. I live an hour from the American border, but in some ways, I live a whole world away.

Really, it's amazing that you-all are just discovering that the USA is NOT a member of the British Commonwealth.   :guns:

/\---Um, okay. Im not even going to bother. Seriously, that had no revelvance. There was no claim about it being part of the commonwealth, not even an incinuation. Nothing. just referance to how cultrally differant we are, even though we are so close. If you cant understand that, there must be aproblem.

Quote from: Gisser

Quote. I live an hour from the American border, but in some ways, I live a whole world away.

Really, it's amazing that you-all are just discovering that the USA is NOT a member of the British Commonwealth.   :guns:

 I guess I just didn't realise that the USA was on a totally different planet...

It's interesting to see how this thread has progressed.  We are all scratching at a topic that has been debated for years- with definate moral, political, and social implications.

I have found that most people who legally carry a firearm do it with a sincere respect  for life- and the right to live.  Unfortunately we live in a world with bad people who do bad things and don't respect  life.  How you deal with that is a choice you make- it's a choice that you will live with- so choose wisely.

I seems to me very interesting and valuable the coments of those guys who have carried because of work, and those who can tell from both sides of the laws. Also it doesn't surprise to me that some guys are against firearms. I personally have carried a concealed firearm a few times, and even when once I was assaulted had no chance to draw it or decided not to draw it. I agree with those who think common sense should lead.

BUT, firearms were designed to shoot bullets, not to kill people. They should be considered a poor engineering product as many shoot people remains alive, or some even got harmless. Of course they can do the job, and sometimes they do it terribly well, as well as kitchen knives, or baseball bats (wasn't baseball a sport?).

It's like those who yell against motorcycles because they are the hell. Then we all shoud drive cars. I'm not on one side or the other, but simply some arguments are too crazy for me. A thumb rule here is: "you can get out of jail but can't get out of pantheon". Of course some radical laws could send you there after you dodge it.

This response is primarily to refute Rich500's misinformation.  Studies available with US (I have no idea about Canada) statistics indicate that while firearm ownership has increased in the last several years, firearm crime, particularly homicide, has decreased.  Furthermore, at least one study below (the last link) shows that crime rates are actually reduced in jurisdictions where concealed carry is allowed.  I think at best we may be able to say more legal gun ownership equates to less crime; however, I think we can at least say there is no correlation (as opposed to "If you look at statistics for murder rates, and man slaughter between 2 places, one where conceled weapons are legal, and one where they are not, you will soon see that there is a corelation.")

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/fidc9397.htm

Firearm injury/death from crime.

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1997/sept297.htm

quick stats on ownership

http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Guns in America:  National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms

http://www.pubpol.duke.edu/people/faculty/cook/SAN01-14.pdf

Dr. Cook's stats on gun ownership and crime rates

http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html

Armed Resistance to Crime:  The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun (I couldn't find this text at a more independent source, sorry)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/htiuscdb.pdf

Homicide Trends in the US

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Lott/lott.pdf

Crime, Deterrence, and the Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns

What can I say, ignorance is bliss.
Im not going to bother any longer arguing this point. Even if I did post statistics that support my point, you will continue to deny. CArry guns, shoot eachother, fine by me. Mutual deterance is America's way of dealing with aggressors. Differant strokes for differant folks.

The Second Amendment is the most dated amendment on the constitution. I love how F-ing republicans want people carrying firearms, but believe ghey marriage is going to be detremental to this country.  

PS F Bush  

Coming from canada myself, I'm in complete agreement with Rich500.  I don't think I've even seen a handgun (other than a Pellet gun) out of a holster, let alone held one, or carried one.

Different strokes for different folks indeed.

This thread is going nowhere, so I'm going to bow out at this point.  It no longer has any relevance and will soon escalate out of hand if not ended.

Thank you to those of you who gave me real, though out answers.  On the assumption that a few of the questions that were leveled at me were honest curiosity, I will respond to a few things.

1. I don't think I'll need to be carrying on a bike, but my bike is my primary transportation.  The decision to carry is one I thought about for a long time, and it's not one I do "just whenever the fancy strikes".  It's not a toy, and I don't treat it as one.

2. Statistically, statistics can be used to "prove" anything.  Rich, you can give me any string of statistics you want, and I can find statistics to refute every one of them... and it's entirely possible both sides would have reputable sources.  If your source is your textbook, however, I'm not terribly interested.  Another statistic for you:  Countries tint the school curriculem to make people happier with current laws.  Therefore, in your country where it's illegal to carry, of course statistics will say that.  Just like in a country where everyone had guns they would show that it was safer that way.  I have read all of your statistics, and I have read mine... and while I disagree with you, no hard feelings, I hope.  I won't quote you statistics, because that would just start an argument that would never end.

For any who are curious, I think what I will end up with is just a standard belt holster when I carry and ride, for now at least, with a shirt over it.  I don't think locking it on the bike would work... I did come up with a way that I could mount a gun safe on the back of the bike, and I guess I could hide it in a soft tail bag, but it would be very difficult to put inside w/out advertising what it was, which would be A Bad Thing.

Thanks everyone for your input.  Sorry to cause so much contention.  Having spent time on this board for the past several months since I got my bike, it's been my experience that most of us here are mateur adults who can deal with people having differing opinions without holding grudges... I hope that will be the case here as well.

And now to see if my newly upgraded fork oil (upgraded the springs a few months ago) has the hoped-for improvements....  

QuoteI guess I just didn't realise that the USA was on a totally different planet...

This is very true.  The USA is on Mars.  In fact, yesterday, NASA made an important announcement:  They've discovered    dry land on the Martian surface!  :lol:

I'm not going to spen time here in meaningless(for this place)rhetoric......
I've been shooting guns every since I could hold them(my father is former army).
I was brought up to pull a gun only if you meant to kill, and only kill what you will eat.
Once I was older(more MATURE), I was brought to understand that you would fight to defend you and yours(by any means nec.).
I own several firearms, and the are allways loaded except for cleaning, and my gf has a pistol that I sold her before we started dating, and it follows the same rule.

Most people who own or carry outside of hunting for food(for sport sucks, if you shoot it, eat it), will only defend their own.  I regularly carry, but if I had or did not have firearm, anybody who was an immediate danger to me or mine would quickly realize that it was a poor choice(and no, I'm not a ninja dude).

Don

Hello,

This is my first post ever, so please be gentle.

I wanted to offer a suggestion to those members out there looking for a good concealable firearm to carry while riding. I'm not trying to continue the pro/con firearms debate, but rather just passing along some technical data.

Check out the Kel-tec P32 semi-auto .32 ACP caliber pistol. It's really a remarkable bit of engineering. The P32 has a number of features usually only found on much larger and more expensive weapons: double-action only trigger, locked breech action, CNC manufactured aluminum frame, composite grips, and internal hammer.

An internal hammer block disengages only when the trigger is pulled all the way, providing a high degree of safety. What is most amazing is the size. The P32 weighs only 9oz loaded, and is only 5" high x 3" wide x 3/4inch wide (it's unbelievably thin!). When I carry mine inside a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster, it never "prints", even in nice dress pants.

In the past, small pocket pistols were squirrelly little buggers that needed a special diet to work well. I've fed my P32 cartridges from a wide variety of manufacturers and haven't had any problems. I don't know what they cost these days, but I paid $320 for mine (with the Parkerized finish) at a local gun show.

Accuracy is pretty good at close range, which is all these little pistols are designed for. Personally, I prefer FMJ over hollow-points on something this small.

Hope this helps.