I've been on the small displacement bandwagon for quite some time and the whole "It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow" slogan seems to ring true for me.
Even now, after being on a 1203cc BEAST, I still pine for my 500s.  They're good usable bikes, not wholly slow, but not brown-pants fast either.

Lately I've been getting more and more comfortable with the speed my motorcycle produces, and since the wow factor has diminished I find the speed and thrill of acceleration... less thrilling?  More than that it's wholly unnecessary.  Going up and down the mountain at first was a more or less magical experience for me because of the MOUNTAIN.  Now that I'm used to the sights and the curves, I'm focused more on my technique as a rider and the manipulation of the motorcycle itself.  Problem is, it's a simple one gear affair for the Buell.  First will carry me up to 50mph in mere seconds, shifting to second while the power is on will lift the front end up again and carry me to about 80, and third will bring me to around 100.  While that's pretty cool in it's own right, when the posted speed is 35mph with some turns being 30, and not wanting to really go over 50 at all because of the chance of an aggravated speeding charge, either I'm in second and play aggressive with the brakes and acceleration going into and coming out of turns, or I'm in third and have a more consistent higher speed throughout but a less aggressive ride overall.  Either way there's no reason for me to be shifting up or down, and it makes for a rather dull experience.
Roll off throttle, shift weight, hold throttle, make turn, roll on, center weight, roll off, etc.  I don't even need to use the brakes.
If I'm up there to cruise it's no harm no foul, but lately I've been wanting to get more curve aggressive.  I want to hang off, I want to be shifting mid turn, I want to roll on hard coming out of the turn, and I want to do this LEGALLY (as legally as possible).  Sure, go to a track day, and I want to, but I would also not want to use the Buell for that.  I don't think I'd learn as much or be challenged as much as I would like on it.

Then I watch videos like this:



Max speed of about 60 in the straights, full knee-drag in the corners, and it's all done on a go-kart track!  This is the kind of riding I really want to get into, less about speed and more about owning the corners.
And that YouTuber, Fonzie RR, used to be a canyon carver on a Daytona and other such bikes, but ultimately downsized to his Ninja 250 and started taking it to the go-kart track because he says it's a LOT cheaper to use the kart track than a full size track, it's safer than "Street GP", but the thrill is still there.


So even though I said I'd never trade in the Buell directly for something smaller, I'm honestly considering this now.  And maybe smaller than a 500cc.  Something like a CBR500R would be cool, I had a CB500F and I found it had smooth power delivery, did more than fine on the expressway, and the CBR version being a little more aggressively styled and positioned would be cool, but I'm also remembering how mine had aftermarket rear-sets and stuff to make it more aggressive riding friendly and the CBR would need that (a lot of added cost).
So instead I'm thinking more R3 or Ninja 300.  Possibly even RC390 if I can find one.  I rode an R3 last year and almost instantly fell in love with it, and I got a chance to ride an RC390 about a month or so ago and had a ton of fun on that as well.
300cc class can still break 80 on the interstate, which I'd need, but I can have good aggressive fun on public roads while not being a complete danger to myself and others.

Ideally I'd just get a Ninja in addition to the Buell, but I've never really been in the kind of financial situation to own two vehicles at once and currently I can really only afford to have one bike, so I'm considering trading down.

Someone please tell me it's either a good idea to have more economical fun while riding or a terrible one that I'll regret for the rest of my life because it'll be too small to deal with in traffic.

What you're saying makes sense to me    I've always been more attracted to vehicles that aren't "brown-pants fast" lololol I absolutely love that and I'm gonna remember it   I built up the suspension on my Spirit years ago and one of my favorite things to do was to floor that car and find curvy roads... might not sound like much fun but it sure was for me. Once I finish my restoration on it, I'll probably do it again... just one more time... and then that car will be babied for the rest of its/my life.

I like this post and I'm eager to see what others have to say.

just a few concerns. see if you can picture yourself on a particular bike for at least an hour and how youd feel afterwards. also see how a smaller bike would do on interstate. i.e wind kissues as well as traffic issues. ( gettinlg wind blasted by a tractor trailer. some smaller bikes dont do to good in this department )
Aaron

I get it. I sold my Vstrom 1000 and kept the GS500. I don't need to go 110 MPH on the highway and the vstrom is not much better in the dirt than a GS.

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on March 15, 2017, 04:56:32 PM
just a few concerns. see if you can picture yourself on a particular bike for at least an hour and how youd feel afterwards. also see how a smaller bike would do on interstate. i.e wind kissues as well as traffic issues. ( gettinlg wind blasted by a tractor trailer. some smaller bikes dont do to good in this department )
Aaron

Being that most of these smaller motorcycles don't put you in full tuck I think I'll do just fine on something like an R3 for an extended time.  I'm already leaned over quite a bit on the Buell, I've actually got lower than factory bars on it and on my GSs I typically ran "superbike" bars.

Wind may be a concern, but I don't think it'll be a major issue other than a mild inconvenience.

Quote from: Bluesmudge on March 15, 2017, 05:32:16 PM
I get it. I sold my Vstrom 1000 and kept the GS500. I don't need to go 110 MPH on the highway and the vstrom is not much better in the dirt than a GS.

My thinking exactly here.  I don't need a top speed of 145mph and a 0-60 under 3 seconds for the street, but that's what I have.  A 250 can go around a corner at 50mph just fine, it just might not make it up to 95 and back down before the next corner.

When I bought the Buell it was never about the cc size.  I wasn't that concerned with how big it was.  Looking back I never thought that perhaps I wouldn't like a bike that was this big, I was only just thinking "I don't care about the size, I know I can handle a big bike, I'm not for or against it."  It looked cool, it was a V-twin, it sounded badass, 'Murica, Buell's are unique, it was in my price range, everything else in my price range didn't sparkle like the Buell did...  I don't regret owning it, it's an awesome bike, but I may have misjudged my needs and my rider character.
I always bring up that I never really "outgrew" my 500s.  I would sometimes (often) be outrun when hooning around with some friends, but it wasn't wholly disheartening because I knew what I had and I wasn't often running that thing flat out regardless.

I think it would be different if I knew I was using even 50% of that Buell when I "push it" in the mountains, but neither the streets nor my own personal ability come close to realizing it's full potential.  When I was pushing 70-80% on my Honda I was having a really good time (and I think I can say with confidence that I was in 70-80%, I'd pin that throttle without hesitation and had the ABS come on more than a few times under hard braking, but I never really got a knee down in turns).

It's like...  Someone takes you to an average steak restaurant and says "Order whatever you want, it's on me" and you get a big 16oz Sirloin steak with a ton of BS on the side and eat the whole thing and are like "Yes!  That was great!  Loved it!  Could have been cooked a little rarer but it's fine, I enjoyed it anyway."
Then you go to a Gordon Ramsay owned restaurant with the same person, same situation, and you order a Beef Wellington and some other BS and when it comes to the table the waiter takes away your silverware.  And you're like "Yeah, it's delicious, doubly so, but it's so hard to eat without silverware that I can't really enjoy it as much."
Wellington is the Buell, utensils are the road...
And that's a terrible example but its a somewhat ok way of describing how I feel about the situation.

"Too much bike, not enough road."

Why not a middleweight sportbike, like an R6 or ZX6R? They can be big enough not to get blown around on the freeway and retain the "thrill" of a lot of power, but aren't anywhere near as "fast" as a 1200cc like your current bike.

Or would you consider that still too much bike for the road?

Quote from: qcbaker on March 15, 2017, 08:13:47 PM
Why not a middleweight sportbike, like an R6 or ZX6R? They can be big enough not to get blown around on the freeway and retain the "thrill" of a lot of power, but aren't anywhere near as "fast" as a 1200cc like your current bike.

Or would you consider that still too much bike for the road?

Well, in reality an R6 is MORE bike than my 1203cc Buell, if you can believe it.

They make, on average these days, 20 more ponies and will push you around 20mph faster than my Lightning will   

The difference is my Buell makes about twice the torque, but with a max of 7000 rpm to turn that torque out the only real difference is I achieve in 5 gears what an R6 will do in 6...
Also, because it's an air cooled twin it actually races in 600cc class.  In that class it destroys around turns, the handling is awesome and it can really get up and go because of the torque from that V-twin, but it can't leg it out in the straights nor maintain a good top speed.
So it'll accelerate like a bat out of hell but runs out of engine relatively quickly.


This is an awesome race, here.  It's not a Buell, per say, it's an EBR 1190RS.  That being said, the same concept applies.  It's got more torque, better brakes, and slightly better weight distribution compared to the almost 200cc smaller GSXR, but the GSXR has the edge in pure output.

As if I didn't need any more temptation, I found a naked converted 2007 GS500F that's in decent condition with an owner who wants to trade up to something bigger.  Sent him pictures of my Buell and he's interested.

I didn't make any promises, but I told him if we met up soon at the very least we could enjoy the weather.  There's a group heading up the mountain this weekend so I used that as an excuse to see it.  IDK if I can actually go through with it, though.  The GS is tried and true but there are a few fundamental things I would want to do to it that may be difficult or expensive.  Rear-sets being one...

I read your original post, and the comments, with interest. I have been riding motorcycles, on and off, for over 50 years and my days of trying to be a boy racer are long behind me. I've never really been into big bikes: an R1 rider told me a while back that he could only do two speeds on his, 80 km/hr or 280! And that seems to make sense to me. The real point I wanted to make was that you can shed too many cc's. A 125 or 250 is a lot of fun in a city, weaving in and out of traffic, but if you ride on the highway than you top speed is limited to about 110-120 km/hr, and after about 80 the acceleration is not too exciting. You might also find yourself exposed and vulnerable because you have no power/torque in hand to get you out of trouble.

Another point is that most of the roads in North America are essentially straight: this makes for fairly tedious riding is you can't get a brisk acceleration up to the speed limit. I agree that anything more is wasted (unless you like risking the tickets), but on those long straights there really is nothing else to keep you interested but acceleration. Once you hit the twisties, then you need a bike that  you can flick over from side to side and have fun with, and a 500 - 750cc bike should cover that quite nicely.

However, that's just my opinion. You must look and where and for how long you will ride your bike for yourself and decide what suits you best.

Isn't the RC390 closer to a "true" sportbike in terms of riding position, gearing, power delivery, etc.? I mean, MotoAmerica even has a whole racing division dedicated to it...

Maybe that would be the right "fit" for what you want, then?

You know I will say "do it".

R3 sounds perfect for you. Or that converted GS-F you suggested. That's a known quantity. But the R3 would be way more reliable and modern, as well a more sporty if you're into that kind of thing (and it sounds like you are).

The Duke 390 is an interesting angle, and given your enjoyment of the sort of unconventional nature of the Buell it may suit you well. Plus it likely has similar torque/rpm delivery as your Buell so it may be an easier transition, but it might not give you want you want in terms of engagement with the machine.

I drove a Miata for 15 years and had the same exact reaction. Everyone would tell me how much better their 400hp cars were and all that but the fact was that the Miata forced you to learn to use the gears and get to know the power peak and rev limits, it sounded amazing when revved to 7K and made you want to do that all the time. And I could commute to work and feel like I'd just driven in a grand prix, all without breaking the speed limit.

I tell this story often but one time when I was young I had a 240Z. One day on my way to work I come to a stop light up next to a guy in a Porsche 911 turbo. I figure, now's my chance to go at it with this Porsche! You know, I was young (probably 22). So the light turns green and I hit it, rev that gorgeous sounding inline 6 to 7200 rpms on every shift and make that car do every bit of the 0-60 in 7ish seconds that it was capable of, barely edging the 911 to my left. I remember then looking over victoriously to find the Porsche driver was reading a newspaper during our stoplight grand prix. Point is, in my car it was thrilling and fast and engaging and in the 911 it was so dull you had to entertain yourself with the newspaper. Give me the vehicle that entertains me during my mundane drive, every time.

Quote from: mr72 on March 16, 2017, 08:17:40 AM
I tell this story often but one time when I was young I had a 240Z. One day on my way to work I come to a stop light up next to a guy in a Porsche 911 turbo. I figure, now's my chance to go at it with this Porsche! You know, I was young (probably 22). So the light turns green and I hit it, rev that gorgeous sounding inline 6 to 7200 rpms on every shift and make that car do every bit of the 0-60 in 7ish seconds that it was capable of, barely edging the 911 to my left. I remember then looking over victoriously to find the Porsche driver was reading a newspaper during our stoplight grand prix. Point is, in my car it was thrilling and fast and engaging and in the 911 it was so dull you had to entertain yourself with the newspaper. Give me the vehicle that entertains me during my mundane drive, every time.

This is hilarious! Funny, too, because my brother drives a Miata, yet constantly insists that his first gen SV650 is far superior to my GS...

Watcher, I wish I had something to add, but having never ridden anything bigger than my GS, I don't know what to tell you. I always say that I want a bigger bike some day, but for now I'm happy with the GS. Even when I do get something faster, it'll likely be an FZ-07, which is still reasonable, I think. Still more of a standard riding position that I like from the GS, but with some extra oomph.

Quote from: rscottlow on March 16, 2017, 08:59:37 AM
...
his first gen SV650 is far superior to my GS...
...

The engine? Yes. The aesthetics? That gen SV650S has a face only a mother could love...

agreed on the speed comments. and i know the buells powertrain well. its essentially a tweaked harley sportster. or wsas that the thunderbolt? anyhoo, after much thought, the r3 sounds tastier and tastier. or the 390 even.
Aaron

I think your Buell will be one missed wen you're older. The kind of bike you wish you'd kept because of what it is. I wouldn't get another GS500 personally unless you really miss it. If that's the bike you must have, get it, otherwise I'd keep an open mind. Why not book a couple of test rides, see who got what. My bike history is crap, Honda CG125 for 5 hours, Yamaha YBR125 for about 3 hours, Yamaha XJ6 restricted to 33bhp, none of which belonged to me, and my GS500. I'm a little more excited to try different bikes, but if it was me, I'd be riding around on all the new toys.

Chris

Quote from: barry905 on March 16, 2017, 02:36:29 AM
The real point I wanted to make was that you can shed too many cc's. A 125 or 250 is a lot of fun in a city, weaving in and out of traffic, but if you ride on the highway than you top speed is limited to about 110-120 km/hr, and after about 80 the acceleration is not too exciting. You might also find yourself exposed and vulnerable because you have no power/torque in hand to get you out of trouble.

Another point is that most of the roads in North America are essentially straight: this makes for fairly tedious riding is you can't get a brisk acceleration up to the speed limit.

Since I live about 10 minutes from the base of a mountain and the surrounding terrain has many roads that aren't the long straight, I can say with 100% confidence that the roads I ride for fun are twisty, so I don't feel like I need a bike that will 0-60 in 3 seconds.
The only times I would suffer going straight for an extended period is commuting out of town, and that's a dull experience at 80, at 100, at 180...

Quote from: qcbaker on March 16, 2017, 05:53:52 AM
Isn't the RC390 closer to a "true" sportbike in terms of riding position, gearing, power delivery, etc.? I mean, MotoAmerica even has a whole racing division dedicated to it...

Maybe that would be the right "fit" for what you want, then?

I'm seriously considering it.  I did experience first hand one downside of the RC.  They run hot, and factory coolant caps are NOT rated properly, so they like to overflow coolant.  The radiator needs a definite upgrade from factory, or you need to mod the fan to stay on, in the Arizona heat that may be a concern.
That being said, I did find one locally for a hair over $4000 OBO with about 7000 miles on it, an extra set of tires, and some tasteful mods.  No trades, but if I can secure the bike on word of mouth and a buyer for the Buell I might be able to make a deal all in one day...  It's a possibility.

Quote from: mr72 on March 16, 2017, 08:17:40 AM
You know I will say "do it".

The Duke 390 is an interesting angle, and given your enjoyment of the sort of unconventional nature of the Buell it may suit you well. Plus it likely has similar torque/rpm delivery as your Buell so it may be an easier transition, but it might not give you want you want in terms of engagement with the machine.

The Duke is cool, but it's essentially just a smaller version of what I already have, but I'm thinking of going a little more aggressive.  I could always put drag bars on the Duke, but I'm thinking more RC390.
The only thing really keeping me from going all in on one is the full clip-ons.  I've never ridden a proper sportbike for longer than a half hour, I don't know how my body will handle a full tuck for an extended period.

I like your 240Z story.  It's echos my sentiment pretty well.



@Rscottlow those FZ07s are supreme.  Not a ton of power over the GS, but they have quite a noticeable boost in torque, sound way cooler, and look hella aggressive.  They're sweet bikes.

Quote from: yamahonkawazuki on March 16, 2017, 12:28:50 PM
i know the buells powertrain well. its essentially a tweaked harley sportster. or wsas that the thunderbolt? anyhoo, after much thought, the r3 sounds tastier and tastier. or the 390 even.
Aaron

Thunderbolt and Lightning are essentially the same powerplant and trans in a different chassis.  You aren't wrong.

Quote from: the_63 on March 16, 2017, 01:59:33 PM
I think your Buell will be one missed wen you're older. The kind of bike you wish you'd kept because of what it is.  I'm a little more excited to try different bikes, but if it was me, I'd be riding around on all the new toys.

Ideally I'd just keep the Buell and pick up a little toy bike, but I'm not in the kind of financial situation where I can justify two machines (nor can afford right now), and there are other things looking ahead that concern me about long term Buell ownership.
Many parts are coming from donor bikes, and that being the case parts can be sort of expensive for what they are, and on the Buell communities I'm a part of when a donor machine pops up online it's picked apart like piranhas on a carcass.  Immediately it's set upon by the community and stripped for almost everything, sometimes starting bidding wars.  All it would take is a stator to go bad and I could have a really big paperweight for a day, a week, a month?  Depends on if I am first in line and how much $$ I have to spend, or even if the donor has the part I need...

Sorry, I know double post but my last was really meaty and I wanted some separation for this.


Just browsing YouTube for videos of small displacement bikes on track days I came across this.  An editor for Motorcyclist Magazine has a highly modified CBR300R that he frequently races.  In this particular example he is racing at a local track that they often use as a testing grounds for new motorcycles they are going to review.
He sets a 350 Supersport lap record of 1:58.66 going flat out balls to the wall.  By comparison, they mention that when they try to get good lap times on reviewed motorcycles 4 times the size, like a BMW S1000RR or Kawi ZX10R, they get around 1:54-2:05 lap times.
Despite all the mods that little popper is only making 8HP more than stock, and to set that time he averaged 81mph.  Apparently the stock max speed of a CBR300R is a mere 11mph more...
Being lighter and more powerful and potentially geared differently means this CBR might have a top speed over 100, but it's still an impressive feat, and a clear testament of what someone who can use 90%+ of a motorcycle can do with it.  Most people wouldn't believe that, with the right rider, a 250 can BEAT a 1000 around a track...

could use regular sportster parts instead of buell. ( same thing MOSTLY) I DID PUT A SET of bujell heads on my 883c for a slight compression boost. but heck even sportster parts dont hang around long online.
Aaron

I messaged someone I met not too long ago with an RC390 who was all star eyed over my Buell and mentioned that I kind of wanted to downsize and kind of wanted an RC390, and said if he wanted to upgrade any time in the near future maybe we could trade bikes and he seemed excited at the prospect.

His has some tasteful mods done.  Rear fender eliminator, painted fairings, LED license plate bracket...  Might meet up and swap bikes to see if we like them on the road.

I'm more and more interested in the possibilities here.  Since I'm more or less out of work at the moment I might just try to sell the Buell and pick up something else locally.  Seems to be a few good deals around.
Maybe I could end up making money in the process.

Quote from: Watcher on March 16, 2017, 02:15:29 PM
Since I live about 10 minutes from the base of a mountain and the surrounding terrain has many roads that aren't the long straight, I can say with 100% confidence that the roads I ride for fun are twisty, so I don't feel like I need a bike that will 0-60 in 3 seconds.
The only times I would suffer going straight for an extended period is commuting out of town, and that's a dull experience at 80, at 100, at 180...

Usually when I hear the "you need a bigger bike" sentiment it's either because a) one should get "bored" with sub-5-second 0-60 acceleration and eventually long for the sub-4-second bikes (in other words, this is a serious lack of maturity speaking) or b) riding on TX toll roads with 85mph speed limits and the attendant wind especially from 18-wheelers makes a light-middle-weight naked street bike feel pretty iffy.

In opposition to my 240Z story ... we have a lot of windy roads around here since I'm at the entry to the "Texas Hill Country" and I can tell you my Miata would positively smoke any >2500lb car on the twisty roads, regardless of horsepower. Yes, that includes the mighty Honda S2000s. In corners weight is king. Momentum, intertia, the ability to change direction, and controllability are all dependent almost entirely on weight. The best a high-hp (heavier) car can hope to do is have enough brakes to slow down much more in corners than the Miata has to and then enough power to rapidly accelerate to make up lost time coming out of a corner. If there's inadequate space before the next corner, then you can't make up that time.

One time I went to an autocross when I was a teenager and watched as someone pulled up with a Lamborghini Diablo. It was a riot of knocked-down cones and tire smoke. Then a dude in a 1100-lb Formula Vee, all of probably 90 horsepower, proceeded to carve out a lap with precision and grace that was far and away the fastest of the day among all cars, by huge margin. Huge.

Quote
I did experience first hand one downside of the RC.  They run hot, and factory coolant caps are NOT rated properly, so they like to overflow coolant.

May not be the radiator cap is the only problem. In AZ you are going to be taxing any marginal cooling system tremendously. You are right that higher capacity radiator is probably the ticket. Then getting the coolant chemistry exactly right will probably help a lot. Miatas are notoriously poor at cooling from the factory, "adequate" provided everything is in perfect condition, but to cope with TX summers with the AC on and rush hour traffic jams I eventually upgraded to an aluminum 5-core racing radiator and ran 80% distilled water with the balance P-HOAT and half a bottle of Redline Water Wetter. I owned two water-cooled VWs and they were simply inadequate cooling systems for TX. I'm not convinced the Germans (or Austrians in KTM's case) understand the kind of heat we have in the American southwest.

  The radiator needs a definite upgrade from factory, or you need to mod the fan to stay on, in the Arizona heat that may be a concern.
That being said, I did find one locally for a hair over $4000 OBO with about 7000 miles on it, an extra set of tires, and some tasteful mods.  No trades, but if I can secure the bike on word of mouth and a buyer for the Buell I might be able to make a deal all in one day...  It's a possibility.

Quote
The Duke is cool, but it's essentially just a smaller version of what I already have, but I'm thinking of going a little more aggressive.  I could always put drag bars on the Duke, but I'm thinking more RC390.

Fair enough. I am not into the sport bike looks at all. But the Duke looks ridiculous anyway. If they made that bike with aesthetics more akin to a Ducati Monster, SV650 or even my beloved GS500E then I'd be tempted.

Quote
The only thing really keeping me from going all in on one is the full clip-ons.  I've never ridden a proper sportbike for longer than a half hour, I don't know how my body will handle a full tuck for an extended period.

No kidding. Which is why I'd prefer the Duke May be worth test-riding both.

Quote
@Rscottlow those FZ07s are supreme.  Not a ton of power over the GS, but they have quite a noticeable boost in torque, sound way cooler, and look hella aggressive.  They're sweet bikes.

I dig them a lot too only not really stoked about the appearance. If they brought the XSR700 here (essentially same bike with different aesthetics) then I'd probably own one by now.

Quote
...there are other things looking ahead that concern me about long term Buell ownership....All it would take is a stator to go bad and I could have a really big paperweight for a day, a week, a month?

Sounds like it's becoming a collector item. This is precisely why I sold my 240Z, which I still sort of regret to this day, but it was the right choice at the time. This is the kind of thing where you may kick yourself for selling it and moving on, but I bet you'd kick yourself much harder if you kept it. I could tell you more stories but you get the point.

I wonder if you might wind up in the same boat with a KTM. How abundant are those parts? Seems like it might be somewhat exotic. Maybe a Yamaha or Honda might be much easier to keep up day to day.