I've never before in my life experienced so much first-hand RAGE as the result of the behavior of people in traffic since I moved from Chicago to Tucson.  I'd like to start a discussion (as civil as possible) about behaviors and procedures in traffic, and try to get a somewhat national concept on whether or not this is a learned/taught behavior, a misinterpretation of legality, or just behavioral based on a culture.


So, here's the situation:

"You are at an intersection that is currently signalling red, everyone is stopped.  There is a dedicated left turn lane with it's own signal, but it is NOT a controlled left turn (no red arrow).  You are sitting in queue to make a left turn.  Before the main signal turns green, a green left arrow is presented and traffic begins to move through the intersection.  Before you can make your turn, the green signal is removed and you stop at the behest of the main red and are now first in line to turn.  The main signal turns green allowing traffic to proceed.  What do you do now?"

If you're me, you enter the intersection to turn left and at the first opportunity (be it a gap in oncoming flow or the signal changing back to red and stopping oncoming traffic) you make your left hand turn.
Does anyone do otherwise?  If so, can you offer me a concise and rational reason as to why?


It seems that here the vast majority of drivers will wait at the stop line for an opportunity to make the left turn, or will not turn at all instead waiting for the light to cycle and present another green arrow.  When I question people about it I don't get satisfactory answers and when I try to start discussion I'm often met with "that's just how we do it here" which is about as aggravating of a response as you can get...

if you can proceed legally and safely, proceed. if you cannot do either one, wait.
Aaron

What you are supposed to do is wait at the stop line until the first opportunity to make the left turn while the light is still green.. Technically, entering the intersection without completing your turn is blocking the box and completing the turn after the light turns red is running a red light. However, I don't think I've ever even heard of someone being ticketed for that.

Waiting at the stop line until getting the green arrow again is absolute madness though. You're allowed to turn left on green, you just have to yield to oncoming traffic.

That'd be the equivalent of a right turn here, and the way I was taught is the first vehicle enters the intersection on the green light, wait until a clear opportunity presents itself, then proceed.

If the light changes to amber/red and you're in the intersection, you're required by law to proceed through and clear the intersection, the only tricky bit there is being cautious of those going straight through who accelerate to beat the red light rather than stopping as they should.

It frustrates the living hell out of me when people won't enter the intersection while waiting to turn right as inevitably they will cause someone to miss an opportunity to take the turn and instead you have to sit there for another change of lights.

Perhaps the traffic laws vary by state, but as far as I am aware, you aren't supposed to enter the intersection if you are not able to proceed the entire way through because you may end up "blocking the box" if traffic is congested. I know there are explicit signs and laws about this in large some cities. I spend a lot of time in NYC since my mom lives there, and there are "Don't block the box" signs all over the place. And I believe I've seen similar signs in Philadelphia.

PA Law on this: "Vehicular traffic facing a green arrow signal, shown alone or in combination with another indication, may enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by the arrow, or such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time."

I guess you might be able to argue in court that "make the movement" is vague and doesn't necessarily imply that you need to complete the movement. But, I think the intent here is that you aren't supposed to enter the intersection unless you can go through.

Quote from: qcbaker on November 22, 2017, 11:49:47 AM
Technically, entering the intersection without completing your turn is blocking the box and completing the turn after the light turns red is running a red light.

I cannot find any law in AZ nor IL that describes this as "running the red light".  As far as I can tell, as long as your back tire has cleared the stop line you are considered "in" the intersection and have already conducted your business with the traffic signal.  If you are straddling the stop line, the light turns yellow, and you gun it through, then yes, you have run the red.  But if you're IN the intersection you're just completing your maneuver.  Nobody that I have known or talked to has ever gotten a ticket, via camera or via officer, for doing such a maneuver.

Quote from: peteGS on November 22, 2017, 12:59:27 PM
the way I was taught is the first vehicle enters the intersection on the green light, wait until a clear opportunity presents itself, then proceed.

It frustrates the living hell out of me when people won't enter the intersection while waiting to turn right as inevitably they will cause someone to miss an opportunity to take the turn and instead you have to sit there for another change of lights.

This is exactly the case with me, and the source of my frustration.  I've taken to considering re-routing my commute to avoid a particular left turn that seems to last 2 cycles longer than it theoretically should because people wait for the arrow and only the arrow to turn.  Double worse because the more common arrangement here is a "trailing turn" where the arrow comes AFTER the green-light cycle rather then preceding it, so sometimes drivers don't even realize they have permission to turn for seconds after the light has been green, and by the time 2 cars make it through it's already yellow...

Quote from: qcbaker on November 22, 2017, 01:09:20 PM
As far as I am aware, you aren't supposed to enter the intersection if you are not able to proceed the entire way through because you may end up "blocking the box" if traffic is congested. I know there are explicit signs and laws about this in large some cities.

In Chicago proper there were such signs, but often there were also controlled turns where the turning lane had it's own set of signals, including a red arrow that stopped all turning traffic.  Everywhere else, though, had a typical red/yellow/green/yellow-arrow/green-arrow arrangement.

Quote from: qcbaker on November 22, 2017, 01:28:23 PM
PA Law on this: "Vehicular traffic facing a green arrow signal, shown alone or in combination with another indication, may enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by the arrow, or such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time."

I'd argue that a normal green light isn't directional, so making a left turn on a solid green IS "such other movement as is permitted", so long as there is no red arrow prohibiting such movement.

Our uncontrolled left turns would have a green light or a flashing yellow before or after the green arrow to indicate that you can still legally make a left turn when safe to do so. These signals will also always have a red light to indicate when you cannot legally enter the intersection.

If the traffic engineers thought it was safe in that intersection for you to make a left turn when oncoming traffic has a green light they would have given you a green light or flashing yellow before the green arrow. Or are you saying that the intersection has green arrows but no other left turn signals? If that is the case I would read it the same as having a dedicated green and turn left when its safe to do so.

If the signal for your lane is red you cannot enter the intersection. In Oregon, the exception to this is turning left on red onto a one-way street. This is a weird Oregon rule and I think only one other state allows left turns on red onto one way streets.
Here are our rules:
-You can turn left on red from a one-way street onto a one-way street.
-You can turn left on red from a two-way street onto a one-way street.
-You cannot turn left on red from a one-way street onto a two-way street.
-You definitely cannot turn left on red from a two-way street onto a two-way street.

Quote from: Bluesmudge on November 22, 2017, 03:16:17 PM
Are you saying that the intersection has green arrows but no other left turn signals? If that is the case I would read it the same as having a dedicated green and turn left when its safe to do so.

Yes.

I never enter the intersection or proceed past the stop line until I know I can complete the left turn and be on my way.

I don't like the thought of being in the middle of an intersection waiting to make a turn because if there is a collision in the intersection, it potentially puts me closer to getting hit with debris, the involved vehicles, etc.

I personally feel safer back behind the stop here line and I feel my anxiety rise if I would be in the middle of the intersection but unable to make the turn and get out of the way. My mind says, "Wait here. Be patient. Execute the whole turn when you can."

Also, IIRC, I once heard about a law that says if you are hit by another vehicle while in the middle of the intersection, the eyes of the law can see that as YOUR fault... or PARTIALLY YOUR fault... because it can be assumed that you were in motion and were supposed to be yielding.

If you are stopped behind the "stop here" line, the law can't really justify saying, "You were already into a turn that you were not supposed to be doing because you were to be yielding."

Quote from: peteGS on November 22, 2017, 12:59:27 PM
That'd be the equivalent of a right turn here, and the way I was taught is the first vehicle enters the intersection on the green light, wait until a clear opportunity presents itself, then proceed.

If the light changes to amber/red and you're in the intersection, you're required by law to proceed through and clear the intersection, the only tricky bit there is being cautious of those going straight through who accelerate to beat the red light rather than stopping as they should.

It frustrates the living hell out of me when people won't enter the intersection while waiting to turn right as inevitably they will cause someone to miss an opportunity to take the turn and instead you have to sit there for another change of lights.

Pete, be wary of this. My understanding is (confirmed by traffic light camera fines though not by me), that you must be CLEAR through the intersection and make your turn BEFORE the light turns red. If you enter the intersection on green, then if some vehicle comes the other way running the red, meaning that you can't complete your turn before the red, the camera will catch ya. This happened to someone very close to me, a big fine was the result, we saw the picture which shows the vehicle IN the intersection ON RED, they would not listen to any excuse/reason. The attitude is simply that you cannot be IN an intersection on a red light whatever the circumstances. (Victoria Oz BTW)

Quote from: peteGS on November 22, 2017, 12:59:27 PM
That'd be the equivalent of a right turn here, and the way I was taught is the first vehicle enters the intersection on the green light, wait until a clear opportunity presents itself, then proceed.

If the light changes to amber/red and you're in the intersection, you're required by law to proceed through and clear the intersection, the only tricky bit there is being cautious of those going straight through who accelerate to beat the red light rather than stopping as they should.

It frustrates the living hell out of me when people won't enter the intersection while waiting to turn right as inevitably they will cause someone to miss an opportunity to take the turn and instead you have to sit there for another change of lights.

Same here Pete, if you're in the intersection you must proceed. On a side not if you have to yield to police or ems,  and that requires running a red, you can do so just have to be careful.
Aaron

Quote from: ShowBizWolf on November 22, 2017, 04:24:24 PM
I don't like the thought of being in the middle of an intersection waiting to make a turn because if there is a collision in the intersection, it potentially puts me closer to getting hit with debris, the involved vehicles, etc.

Usually a crash in an intersection will happen between oncoming vehicles (would BE you theoretically) or a car turning right in front of oncoming traffic (would happen BEHIND you theoretically).

I won't say you being an unwitting participant isn't impossible, but I think it's highly unlikely, and so long as you know your vehicle and don't put yourself in harm's way by sticking out too far I don't think you're in any real danger.
I can understand and respect the "there's no escape path" argument, and it's your job to not deny yourself somewhere to go and if you feel safer this way (especially by bike) then absolutely I'd agree with you. That being said, when doing the maneuver correctly you won't  be cutting your own foot off.  When I enter the intersection I'm still facing parallel to traffic despite waiting to turn left, so my escape path is straight across the intersection and potentially back into traffic flow in the direction I'm facing.
In all my years I've never had a close call as a result of me pulling out to turn left.  I think the danger associated with it can be exaggerated.

Quote from: Joolstacho on November 22, 2017, 04:35:47 PM
My understanding is (confirmed by traffic light camera fines though not by me), that you must be CLEAR through the intersection and make your turn BEFORE the light turns red. If you enter the intersection on green, then if some vehicle comes the other way running the red, meaning that you can't complete your turn before the red, the camera will catch ya. This happened to someone very close to me, a big fine was the result, we saw the picture which shows the vehicle IN the intersection ON RED, they would not listen to any excuse/reason. The attitude is simply that you cannot be IN an intersection on a red light whatever the circumstances. (Victoria Oz BTW)

Hmm.  I wonder if Oz has a different manner of law and hence camera system.  Here in the USA they seem to be activated by a ground sensor at the stop line.  If someone is IN the intersection, the light turns full red, and they finish the turn, there is no picture taken.  If someone is with at least their back wheels behind the stop line, and they do the same, you'll see the flash and they'll get the ticket.  I've seen people "creep" on a red light and get flashed for it.

Quote from: Joolstacho on November 22, 2017, 04:35:47 PM

Quote from: peteGS on November 22, 2017, 12:59:27 PM
That'd be the equivalent of a right turn here, and the way I was taught is the first vehicle enters the intersection on the green light, wait until a clear opportunity presents itself, then proceed.

If the light changes to amber/red and you're in the intersection, you're required by law to proceed through and clear the intersection, the only tricky bit there is being cautious of those going straight through who accelerate to beat the red light rather than stopping as they should.

It frustrates the living hell out of me when people won't enter the intersection while waiting to turn right as inevitably they will cause someone to miss an opportunity to take the turn and instead you have to sit there for another change of lights.

Pete, be wary of this. My understanding is (confirmed by traffic light camera fines though not by me), that you must be CLEAR through the intersection and make your turn BEFORE the light turns red. If you enter the intersection on green, then if some vehicle comes the other way running the red, meaning that you can't complete your turn before the red, the camera will catch ya. This happened to someone very close to me, a big fine was the result, we saw the picture which shows the vehicle IN the intersection ON RED, they would not listen to any excuse/reason. The attitude is simply that you cannot be IN an intersection on a red light whatever the circumstances. (Victoria Oz BTW)

That doesn't surprise me at all... I should say I got my license many years before there were such things as red light cameras... might be worthwhile having a re-read of that particular part of the law 

At one point I was led to believe the cameras only operate on vehicles crossing the line/entering the intersection, so if you're already in it you're fine, but again worth a read on my part to be sure! There's also supposed to be about a 2 second delay between the red light and camera activation, but again probably hearsay...

I can also guarantee there will be dfferences between Qld and Vic, and most definitely differences to the US...

They yanked those around here. An outfit out of Scottsdale az,  handled the fines. Cameras are still there just no longer active.
Aaron

Quote from: Watcher on November 22, 2017, 02:02:14 PM
I cannot find any law in AZ nor IL that describes this as "running the red light".  As far as I can tell, as long as your back tire has cleared the stop line you are considered "in" the intersection and have already conducted your business with the traffic signal.  If you are straddling the stop line, the light turns yellow, and you gun it through, then yes, you have run the red.  But if you're IN the intersection you're just completing your maneuver.  Nobody that I have known or talked to has ever gotten a ticket, via camera or via officer, for doing such a maneuver.

Like I said, I've never heard of anyone getting a ticket for going into the intersection to wait to turn. But, I still don't think that you're technically supposed to enter the intersection at all if you can't complete the given maneuver. And, I definitely don't think that you've "conducted your business with the traffic signal". If you haven't yet exited the intersection, the traffic signal still is supposed to govern your movements.

Quote
This is exactly the case with me, and the source of my frustration.  I've taken to considering re-routing my commute to avoid a particular left turn that seems to last 2 cycles longer than it theoretically should because people wait for the arrow and only the arrow to turn.  Double worse because the more common arrangement here is a "trailing turn" where the arrow comes AFTER the green-light cycle rather then preceding it, so sometimes drivers don't even realize they have permission to turn for seconds after the light has been green, and by the time 2 cars make it through it's already yellow...

That is a pretty strange arrangement, I've always seen the green arrow come on BEFORE normal green. I wonder what the data behind that decision was...

Quote
I'd argue that a normal green light isn't directional, so making a left turn on a solid green IS "such other movement as is permitted", so long as there is no red arrow prohibiting such movement.

I'd agree with that for sure. Turning left on solid green is a permitted movement as long as there is no red arrow. But I was emphasizing that the law states you can may only enter the intersection if you are going to perform a "permitted movement". I'm pretty certain that the intent is that if you don't finish your turn, you aren't really "performing" the movement. So, you're not supposed to proceed beyond the stop line if you can't fully complete the turn.

Quote from: Joolstacho on November 22, 2017, 04:35:47 PM
Pete, be wary of this. My understanding is (confirmed by traffic light camera fines though not by me), that you must be CLEAR through the intersection and make your turn BEFORE the light turns red. If you enter the intersection on green, then if some vehicle comes the other way running the red, meaning that you can't complete your turn before the red, the camera will catch ya. This happened to someone very close to me, a big fine was the result, we saw the picture which shows the vehicle IN the intersection ON RED, they would not listen to any excuse/reason. The attitude is simply that you cannot be IN an intersection on a red light whatever the circumstances. (Victoria Oz BTW)

This is how I understood it as well. Now that I think about it, I did get a fine from a red light camera for going through on yellow once. The light turned yellow, and I didn't really have enough time/space to safely stop, so I proceeded through. The light turned red while I was almost of the way through the intersection. About a week later, I got a ticket in the mail about it, with a picture of my car almost all the way through the intersection at red. On the ticket, it showed the amount of time the light had been red before I "ran" it and it showed "0.25 seconds." There's no possible way I made it from the stop line to where I was on that picture in less than a quarter of a second. I was only going around 35 mph, its not like I was speeding through there. The distance I would travel in 0.25 seconds at 35mph is ~12 feet. I was much further than 12 feet from the stop line. The intersection in question is at least 25-30 feet wide. Based on where I was in the picture, I had to have been at least 20+ feet from the stop line. So, the camera took a picture of me even though I was in the intersection when the light turned red.

Obviously that's a different situation than being stopped in the intersection waiting to turn, but it does show that entering the intersection does not end your business with the traffic signal.

Quote from: Watcher on November 23, 2017, 11:40:39 AM
Hmm.  I wonder if Oz has a different manner of law and hence camera system.  Here in the USA they seem to be activated by a ground sensor at the stop line.  If someone is IN the intersection, the light turns full red, and they finish the turn, there is no picture taken.  If someone is with at least their back wheels behind the stop line, and they do the same, you'll see the flash and they'll get the ticket.  I've seen people "creep" on a red light and get flashed for it.

See above story. I got a ticket in Delaware for being "in the intersection" when the light turned red. The US is different than most countries because the traffic laws can vary much more wildly depending on what part of the country you're in.

I'm pretty sure that I could've gotten that ticket overturned if I had showed up to fight it in court. It was just too much effort to do so, since it happened so far from where I actually live. Red light cameras are technically unconstitutional if I remember correctly because you can't "face your accuser" in court. Plus, what would my alternative course of action have been? Slam on my brakes before entering the intersection? I probably would've gotten rear-ended. Seemed much safer to just proceed through on yellow.

I just found the answer for here in Queensland, and it turns out what I was taught is still true and correct, here is the info from the Qld Dept of Transport website in their road rules section, and for once it's not vague and is actually quite clear:

QuoteTurning right at traffic lights

If the light is green and there are vehicles approaching from the opposite direction, you can move forward into the intersection past the stop line if you can do so safely.

If there is a safe gap in oncoming traffic, you may complete the right turn. If you're in the intersection and the oncoming traffic continues until the lights turn yellow or red, you must complete the turn on the yellow or red light.

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/road/traffic-lights

And for the red light camera, it will only trigger if you've crossed the white stop line after the light has become red, so completing a turn and clearing the intersection after the light has gone red will not result in a fine:

Quote
How red light cameras work

If you drive through a red light, the camera will take at least 2 photos of you. One photo as soon the vehicle crosses the solid white line, and another photo will be taken 1 or 2 seconds later to see where you are in the intersection.

It will not take any photos if the light is green or amber—only if the light is red when the front of your vehicle crosses the solid white line to enter the intersection. The red light camera will send the photos and details of the time, date, amount of time the light was red, and your lane position and amount of time the light was red to the Queensland Police Service Traffic Camera Office.

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/fines/speed/cameras-work

That's incredibly clear and concise... I wish US laws were as easy to navigate lol.

Yes, thanks for that Pete. I wonder if the law (or the interpretation) is different down here in Vic.

I'm actually quite surprised how clear and concise that is... usually there's an element of vagueness that casts a bit of doubt... guaranteed things will be different in Vic! We couldn't possibly have simple easy and common road rules across our great nation could we?