How does my engine sound?

[gaspy]

How does my engine sound? In need of repair? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5kdUhuaMmY

I got distracted by a passing Honda CBR600's exhaust note. Jealous?   No way! 

Here's a longer, less interesting video, this time without the CBR's interruption:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0UK0A3iHT4

I picked up the GS from the stealership today because the mechanic says the low-pitched noise at the top of the motor is suspect and it'll cost at least $500 to figure out what's wrong with the engine, likely the camshaft or connecting rods. They say I may be $1200 to $2000 in the hole, depending on what's in need of repair. What do I do? Are they ripping me off and should I keep riding, or should I go in on such an expensive repair order? That's more than a third of what I bought it for.

I have learned so much from this forum and am indebted to you all. I hope this thread serves as another lesson, for me and other newbs.

- gaspy

[leedutcher]

sounds fine to me.....

[dmer]

was the engine hot when you made the video or was it a cold start-up?

[Mdow]

sounds like a rod knock in the vid but its always hard to tell with sound from a camera

[yamahonkawazuki]

sounds like a rod knock in the vid but its always hard to tell with sound from a camera

yup, sound is less than ideal, either a rod knock or perhaps piston slap., does the knock stay in one general location or does it move up and down, IMHO sounds too pronounced to  be camshaft or valve knock

[gaspy]

was the engine hot when you made the video or was it a cold start-up?

the engine was warm, i think hot. I had been riding for at least 15-20 minutes.

Quote from: Mdow on 31 July 2008, 22:49:27

sounds like a rod knock in the vid but its always hard to tell with sound from a camera

yup, sound is less than ideal, either a rod knock or perhaps piston slap., does the knock stay in one general location or does it move up and down, IMHO sounds too pronounced to be camshaft or valve knock

I think the knock does stay in one general location, the top middle part of the engine. The sound is definitely not well picked up by the camera. in person it sounds a lot lower, and obviously louder.

should I keep riding? a second mechanic, at another shop said to keep riding until the problem gets worse and is more easily identified. He said I might as well ride it until it busts, and then I can buy a motor on ebay. 

[TreeFiddy]

Piston slap.

Sounds the same as dad's old Triumph that's in need on an engine rebuild.

[DoD#i]

a second mechanic, at another shop said to keep riding until the problem gets worse and is more easily identified. He said I might as well ride it until it busts, and then I can buy a motor on ebay. 

Look at your "price to investigate" (much less fix). Look at the typical price of a motor on eBay. Make more sense now?
It won't fix itself, and it will get worse eventually, but it may take a long time to do so. If you are up for some wrenching, as a winter DIY project you could rebuild it, if it lasts that long. For less wrenching, just start hunting replacement eBay (or FS forum here) motors now, and when one that's an adequately good deal (including shipping) comes along, buy it - then swap in when convenient, and eBay (or FS forum) the old one (keep the video for your description of it if you are going to be an honest seller...) to someone who wants a rebuilding project, or major parts that are not involved in the problem.

[gaspy]

a second mechanic, at another shop said to keep riding until the problem gets worse and is more easily identified. He said I might as well ride it until it busts, and then I can buy a motor on ebay. 

Look at your "price to investigate" (much less fix). Look at the typical price of a motor on eBay. Make more sense now?
It won't fix itself, and it will get worse eventually, but it may take a long time to do so. If you are up for some wrenching, as a winter DIY project you could rebuild it, if it lasts that long. For less wrenching, just start hunting replacement eBay (or FS forum here) motors now, and when one that's an adequately good deal (including shipping) comes along, buy it - then swap in when convenient, and eBay (or FS forum) the old one (keep the video for your description of it if you are going to be an honest seller...) to someone who wants a rebuilding project, or major parts that are not involved in the problem.

That's what I thought. I put the cuckoo in because I'm worried about what would happen if the engine busts while I'm riding. What could happen? would the rear wheel lockup? Will the noise warn loudly enough before I get to that point? Thank you for the input, everybody. I don't have any experience or knowledge to go on..

[gaspy]

sounds fine to me.....

Can the mechanics be wrong? I know it's hard to tell on camera, but I can't tell the difference between this other GS and mine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpmGoE5toZY&feature=related

Is there anyone in the NYC area who can help a fellow GS'er? I'd ride out to meet you if you are so kind to give me a confident, experienced opinion.

At this point I've got three choices: sell the bike and cut my losses, keep riding it until the noise is better identified, or go in on an expensive diagnostic and repair. I've put in about $1200 on the bike since I've bought it, and a $2000 repair would nearly put me at what I bought it for. I don't know what to do.

[kml.krk]

oh shaZam! man. I feel sorry for you and the bike of course.
I'm in NY but I'm prolly as experienced as you are...

anyways, I wish you good luck and I'm still looking forward to riding with you!!

Kamel

PS. did you finally check the valve clearance?? (I did not read entire post)

[gsJack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0UK0A3iHT4

I picked up the GS from the stealership today because the mechanic says the low-pitched noise at the top of the motor is suspect and it'll cost at least $500 to figure out what's wrong with the engine, likely the camshaft or connecting rods. They say I may be $1200 to $2000 in the hole, depending on what's in need of repair. What do I do? Are they ripping me off and should I keep riding, or should I go in on such an expensive repair order? That's more than a third of what I bought it for.

- gaspy

Well that's not a valve tappet noise or the camshaft sideplay knock noise.  A rod bearing usually raps when you back off on the throttle and a main bearing knocks under load.  Sounds more like piston slap to me, it goes away as you rev it up, but could be something else we've not thought of yet.  Not sure we're hearing it the same on your recording as your mechanic hears it in person.

I read this thread a couple nights ago and was thinking about it and when I came home last night and backed up to the garage door I heard a very similar noise.      Not as loud and pronounced as your recorded noise but very similar.  Probably just piston slap, I'll know if it's normal when I go out shortly.  Bike was parked uptown for about 2 hours and the trip home is only about a mile, hardly time to warm it up completely.  I'm really not concerned about it.

Pistons are fit very loose in air cooled engines compared to water cooled engines because the pistons grow much more than the iron cylinder liners do as the engine warms up and a good fit results when warm.  Pistons might sieze when hot if fit much tighter.

What to do?  If it were my bike I'd pull the tank and valve cover and check it over.  Check valve clearance and make sure buckets turn freely with your finger tip with the cam lobe turned away.  Check cam chain to be sure tensioner is working and chain isn't loose.  Make sure everything is tight including the camshaft bearing caps and the camshaft sprockets on the camshafts.  Another member found a loose sprocket recently.  Do this cold and also pull the plugs and check compression cold.  Don't need a guage, use the finger in the hole method,

What kind and weight of oil do you have in it and how many miles on the bike?  Could be more than indicated if you bought it used.

If I didn't find anything wrong I'd probably go ahead and use it longer and see what develops.  Your bike, your choice.

[beRto]

Doesn't sound good

[formatting edited for clarity]
At this point I've got three choices:

• sell the bike and cut my losses
• keep riding it until the noise is better identified
• expensive diagnostic and repair (~$2000)

I'd say the first two are the only viable options. If you're gonna go a shop repair route, you are better off following DoD#i's advice: look for a replacement engine from the get-go. If you can do the repairs yourself, they would probably cost about the same as a used engine (assuming the problem is in fact piston slap).

If you decide to keep riding it, you should probably at least check the valves first to make sure there isn't anything way off in there.

[gaspy]

Thank you, all, for your responses. it helps to have guidance as I'm facing all these things for the first time.

anyways, I wish you good luck and I'm still looking forward to riding with you!!

PS. did you finally check the valve clearance?? (I did not read entire post)

Thanks, Kamel. I haven't checked the valve clearance yet, but I'm going to search posts to see how hard it is. My ape ancestry shines through when it comes to mechanics. I manage to mess up some of the simplest of projects. I wish I could go riding. I hear the Harriman State Park ride (near NYC, which I have yet to do) is beautiful and fun. I'm starting to lean towards selling the bike, though, so I won't have the opportunity anytime soon.

What to do?  If it were my bike I'd pull the tank and valve cover and check it over.  Check valve clearance and make sure buckets turn freely with your finger tip with the cam lobe turned away.  Check cam chain to be sure tensioner is working and chain isn't loose.  Make sure everything is tight including the camshaft bearing caps and the camshaft sprockets on the camshafts.  Another member found a loose sprocket recently.  Do this cold and also pull the plugs and check compression cold.  Don't need a guage, use the finger in the hole method,

What kind and weight of oil do you have in it and how many miles on the bike?  Could be more than indicated if you bought it used.

Thanks for the tip, gsJack. The bike has 10w-30 from a fresh oil and oil filter change three weeks ago, about 80 miles. The bike is a 2005 gs500f engine with 4600 miles. I believe the f models are oil-cooled, right? Does that change how the pistons would fit? What did I or the previous owner do that after 4600 miles it's already having problems? I low-sided in November 2007, and I have a feeling the PO didn't put enough or the right oil in.

At this point I've got three choices:

    * sell the bike and cut my losses
    * keep riding it until the noise is better identified
    * expensive diagnostic and repair (~$2000)

I'd say the first two are the only viable options. If you're gonna go a shop repair route, you are better off following DoD#i's advice: look for a replacement engine from the get-go. If you can do the repairs yourself, they would probably cost about the same as a used engine (assuming the problem is in fact piston slap).

I love this bike, but I think I have to sell it. I've learned a lot, and this is just another lesson. I wasn't ready to see it go.

-g

[gaspy]

This is probably a ridiculous question, but I'm curious: how much do you think I could ask for the bike, with fairness to myself and the buyer? I'm not in a rush. it's a 2005 gs500f, converted to gs500e, with 4600 miles and aforementioned, undefined engine problems. I low-sided in November 2007, which inspired the naked conversion. My guess is something along the lines of blue book price, subtracting the cost of an entire engine, and probably another $200 for the low side. The bike has some mods and recent maintenance:

- SM-2 handlebars
- .80 kg/mm racetech springs and new 10w fork oil (I'm a lightweight)
- new HH front and rear brake pads, and fresh brake fluid
- 2003+ SV mirrors
- SV headlight lens, gs headlight assembly (trim bezel, bucket, mounting tabs and brackets)
- fenderectomy

I also have a scratched/cracked RH side fairing, a brand new right-hand side fairing, and the rest of the fairing/cowling/cowling body is used and in good shape--i.e. mirrors, mirror mounts, headlight, etc., etc. from f model. I think it's a lot nicer naked. Here are some pictures.




What do you guys think?

-g

[Ickaber]

Sure sounds like piston slap to me.  Of course, that's my current answer to everything, since I just had to replace the top end on my 4-year old's PW50 because of piston slap.  My wife's Yamaha Virago XV535 sounds very similar to your bike -- only hear it when idling, when at speed sounds great -- and I've decided that that one is also piston slap.

On the Virago, if I start it cold and put my hand on the cylinder, I can feel it slapping around in there.  Again, only at idle.  When revved at all it sounds like you'd expect.  So maybe try to see if you can feel it on yours.  I'll be tearing the motor down on the wife's over the winter to replace the piston -- hopefully not the cylinder -- but until then she rides with no problems.  She doesn't even mind the sound, but it drives me crazy.

I don't have an answer for you on what the value of the bike would be -- unfortunately, that would really depend on what's wrong with it, wouldn't it?  But, she is a beautiful bike.  I really like the naked look and the conversion you did.

Good luck!

[gaspy]

Tough update: the shop wasn't able to determine the problem without opening up the engine. It's not the valves, though. It may be the pistons, or even the crankshaft. Instead of paying for a pricy diagnostic that opens the engine up and determines exactly what's wrong, I'm assuming the worst that this engine is on it's way out.

So, I'm looking for a replacement engine to swap in, through offers on this forum, CList, and ebay. I need a complete used, perfectly working engine. If I find one I'll hire a shop to do the work, and sell the engine in need of a rebuild for a low price.

Can anyone offer a suggestion for what I can price the bike and motor at based on this information? I won't get defensive, I'm ready to take the worst here. All I know is that a 2005 with a blown engine recently sold on this forum in Atlanta for $1000: http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=43330.0. Hence, I assume I can at least start at $1000 because I'm not in a rush, my bike has everything said Atlanta bike had, plus a couple upgrades and a running engine in need of a rebuild (for now). I'm going to put the bike up for sale soon and look for a replacement engine, and decide to sell/replace based on the quality of purchase offers and used engine prices.

The bike is in Brooklyn, NY 11211.

I don't have an answer for you on what the value of the bike would be -- unfortunately, that would really depend on what's wrong with it, wouldn't it?  But, she is a beautiful bike.  I really like the naked look and the conversion you did.
Good luck!

Thanks a lot. This bike has a lot of potential, and I'm sad this is what it's come to.

[astroaru]

it sounds like my bike when it had goat's on it. I replaced the rotor, starter clutch set and now it sounds like a breeze. Can you keep your ears closer to the left side crank case and see if that is the source of noise. (don't burn your ears getting too close ) Oops you said - the noise is from the top/mid section. Ignore it 

[gaspy]

Well, I bought a used 2006 gs500f motor with 161 miles on it. Now I have to figure out how to swap it in! Thank you, gstwinner motorcycle forum gods...

Is there anyone on the site with experience in motor work that can offer me advice before I try to swap the engines? A friend of mine will help me, and I have basic tools, including a torque wrench. Is this best left to a professional?

-G

[DoD#i]

Get a can of PB Blaster (or Kroil - different religious sects of the penetrating oil) and start hitting all the bolts/nuts *now* on a regular basis - mounting bolts, frame bolts, manifold bolts, etc... stuck nuts/bolts are the worst of swapping parts.

You should be able to do it, especially with help. Swapping a motor is actually simpler than working inside one.

Take detailed pictures when/as you take it apart - will help with the "where does this go?" questions when putting it back together.

More or less disconnect everything, unbolt, remove, insert, rebolt, reconnect.

Use anti-seize or Loctite (as seems appropriate) on every bolt when reassembling. You'll thank yourself later if you ever need to take any of it apart again.