Feels like ignition

[mr72]

So, not to derail my thread back to the original topic... but...

Yesterday I went for a bit of a ride on the GS and the old 9500 rpm sputtering was back.

Literally nothing on the bike has changed, at least not mechanically. So here are some things that did happen.

- previous time I rode it, when it was working perfectly a few weeks ago, the gas tank was down to about 1/4 full and I rode it almost to reserve. I filled it up before parking it.
- while it was parked in my garage I noticed fuel leaking, tightened the hose clamps on the tank petcock, fuel leaking stopped.
- I moved the bike in and out of the garage several times which required starting it and running it for just a minute or two. I think I took at least one short ride on it where I did rev to 11k over the past couple of weeks but that was before filling with fuel.
- Yesterday when I rode it, it started pretty easily but the starter was turning slowly like the battery was low, which makes sense since it's been sitting basically for a couple of weeks. But then when riding it didn't want to idle, it was idling very low and even stalled at stop lights a couple of times. Had a hard time getting it restarted when it stalled due to a very low battery. So I think the battery is just real low. I did bump the idle speed up just a touch because when warmed it was idling at probably 900 rpm and when cold it wouldn't idle at all except on choke.

So my new theory is that maybe the jets had nothing to do with it. Bike still ran great with the big jets so I'm going to leave them alone for now but I am now thinking it could be one of two things:

1. full tank of gas? what would this cause?
2. weak battery (back to ignition!)

So today I'm putting it on the charger for a few hours and later I'll go test ride with the fuel cap cracked open.

I have no idea what else to check. This is a maddening issue.

BTW it runs like a scalded cat right up to 9500 rpm. Absolutely no issues at all. If you are at all rough with the clutch taking off from a stop sign it'll do little wheelies in 1st and 2nd under WOT (that 14t sprocket). I just want to sort this one little issue out!

Got some "new" (old) aluminum flat tracker round number plates with # 72 on them which I plan to put on in place of my homemade plastic ones which are only big enough to fit one number each. And my dad is moving his DR200 out to my folks place in the country where there are miles and miles of dirt roads to explore so I would really like to get this sorted before taking it out there to ride. Plus I might try to find a way to drag it down to South Padre with me for our family beach week coming in August. Really want to fix this!

I'm all ears for any ideas.

[Meukowi]

So, not to derail my thread back to the original topic... but...

Yesterday I went for a bit of a ride on the GS and the old 9500 rpm sputtering was back.

Literally nothing on the bike has changed, at least not mechanically. So here are some things that did happen.

- previous time I rode it, when it was working perfectly a few weeks ago, the gas tank was down to about 1/4 full and I rode it almost to reserve. I filled it up before parking it.
- while it was parked in my garage I noticed fuel leaking, tightened the hose clamps on the tank petcock, fuel leaking stopped.
- I moved the bike in and out of the garage several times which required starting it and running it for just a minute or two. I think I took at least one short ride on it where I did rev to 11k over the past couple of weeks but that was before filling with fuel.
- Yesterday when I rode it, it started pretty easily but the starter was turning slowly like the battery was low, which makes sense since it's been sitting basically for a couple of weeks. But then when riding it didn't want to idle, it was idling very low and even stalled at stop lights a couple of times. Had a hard time getting it restarted when it stalled due to a very low battery. So I think the battery is just real low. I did bump the idle speed up just a touch because when warmed it was idling at probably 900 rpm and when cold it wouldn't idle at all except on choke.

So my new theory is that maybe the jets had nothing to do with it. Bike still ran great with the big jets so I'm going to leave them alone for now but I am now thinking it could be one of two things:

1. full tank of gas? what would this cause?
2. weak battery (back to ignition!)

So today I'm putting it on the charger for a few hours and later I'll go test ride with the fuel cap cracked open.

I have no idea what else to check. This is a maddening issue.

BTW it runs like a scalded cat right up to 9500 rpm. Absolutely no issues at all. If you are at all rough with the clutch taking off from a stop sign it'll do little wheelies in 1st and 2nd under WOT (that 14t sprocket). I just want to sort this one little issue out!

Got some "new" (old) aluminum flat tracker round number plates with # 72 on them which I plan to put on in place of my homemade plastic ones which are only big enough to fit one number each. And my dad is moving his DR200 out to my folks place in the country where there are miles and miles of dirt roads to explore so I would really like to get this sorted before taking it out there to ride. Plus I might try to find a way to drag it down to South Padre with me for our family beach week coming in August. Really want to fix this!

I'm all ears for any ideas.

Bad battery does all kind of weird stuff, maybe replace with a new one?

[mr72]

nah, the battery was basically brand new when I bought my Triumph, so it's 1.5 years old but it's been stored in a garage in CenTx and the bike has been ridden less than 500 miles since then. Plus there's an overhaul of the charging system including a MOSFET reg/rect.

Battery is not the issue, but perhaps it was weak when I first started it. After riding 20 minutes it should have been fully charged, but it was still misbehaving.

It would be a crazy coincidence if the battery being low caused this issue which has precisely the same symptom as before with a different cause.

I planned to ride it some more over the weekend but just couldn't find time when it was not threatening rain. We have thunderstorms in the forecast this afternoon, not looking good. But I did tear down the fuel cap and blow out the vent hole (which didn't seem to be plugged...), lubed it with triflow, and reassembled the whole thing ensuring it was all in good shape. So hopefully that eliminates that issue.

I am guessing maybe the leaking tank petcock was part of the "solution". It leaked air into the tank. ? Who knows? I haven't tested it yet.

[herennow]

(((tooooooo riiiiiiich) sais in a whisper.

Try to cover 10% of your air intake (some masking tape), if it gets worse, thats a sure sign. Then try to take out your air filter. Ill bet it gets better. 

[mr72]

welp. Things went from bad to seriously worse today when I finally got to test ride. But the good news is the problem is now very obvious: ignition.

Bike sputtered and didn't really want to run below about 4k rpm. Then it died at a stop sign and took me half an hour to get it to start again. Riding the five or so blocks home was white knuckle trying to keep the revs up enough for it to not die. Then once I got it in the garage the root cause made itself plain. It was dumping oil out of the right side crankshaft seal right onto the signal generator. And my shoe and the exhaust and the rear tire and everything else.

I didn't take it apart yet but I'm going order another seal. I replaced that one a while back and it still leaked. So now it's just gone nuclear.

Good thing I have a reliable British bike!

[The Buddha]

welp. Things went from bad to seriously worse today when I finally got to test ride. But the good news is the problem is now very obvious: ignition.

Bike sputtered and didn't really want to run below about 4k rpm. Then it died at a stop sign and took me half an hour to get it to start again. Riding the five or so blocks home was white knuckle trying to keep the revs up enough for it to not die. Then once I got it in the garage the root cause made itself plain. It was dumping oil out of the right side crankshaft seal right onto the signal generator. And my shoe and the exhaust and the rear tire and everything else.

I didn't take it apart yet but I'm going order another seal. I replaced that one a while back and it still leaked. So now it's just gone nuclear.

Good thing I have a reliable British bike!

Wow that's a first - for even hearing about it for me.
You're saying the seal on the right side is pumping that ignition coil/advancer mechanism full of oil and destroying its signal pickup ? Make sure the signal pickup's are good after fixing the oil leak.
Also is the oil seal meant to be installed outside in or from inside the clutch. You look for tears or other stuff in it, you also may need to check why your crankcase has that much pressure - is your vent blocked ? You rebuilt it - you really should have no blow by, but then again crank case pressures are pulses not steady high pressure.
Hey congrads on the diagnosis. I was drawing a blank.

Cool.
Buddha.

[mr72]

The bottom end was not rebuilt. But I think it just filled the entire sig gen cover with oil and it leaked out of that real fast. I still haven't had it apart. I out a new seal in it like 1k miles ago. I guess either I did it wrong, the part was defective, or something else is contributing. But yeah I'm going to have to thoroughly clean the signal generator but my guess is oil is getting into the connector. We'll see.

[The Buddha]

Crankcase pressure is top end - rings especially. If you had a bad seal you that's definitely the culprit, but a lot of pressure shouldn't be there in your case. Sealed up rings may cause pressure pulses, but one goes up as the other goes down - should have minimal pulses.

Cool.
Srinath.

[mr72]

This is my thread after changing this seal. I guess that was shortly after I got the bike. 4K miles ago:

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=71756.msg863514#msg863514

It has been leaking ever since. I haven't checked the oil level, wonder if it's high due to leaking float needles in the carbs (gas in the oil?)? Anyway, I found this while trying to verify the part number of the seal.

Can anyone confirm it's 09283-22015 ? That is shown on the crankshaft parts diagram but not on the crankcase cover which AFAIK is where the seal actually is, right?

EDIT:

Assuming that's the right seal, will any 22x40x8 rotary seal work?

Like this one?
https://www.amazon.com/22X40X8-EAI-Spring-Coating-22mmX40mmX8mm/dp/B07TC8Z28V

Or this one?
https://www.amazon.com/22X40X8-EAI-Spring-Coating-22mmx40mmx8mm/dp/B07LC3XRQD

I'm inclined to order the pricey viton one above.

[The Buddha]

Oil seals are basically industrial parts - not unlike bearings. So I'd measure and buy. Gas in oil obviously can think and eat the seal and leak. But I've had the clutch gasket leak as well as the alternator side on a bike that had a bad gas into oil problem. I would think it would eat paper a lot faster than eat rubber. But possibly could destroy the seal as well.

On seals - I suspect there is 2 types or even more - rotary like this one, and linear like a fork seal and maybe a few more types - make sure you get the correct ones.

Having said that - you know more about this I guess than any one else on this site currently. Dgyver, JamesG, Davipu, werase643, Bob Broussard and a few others who built race bikes etc may be more knowledgeable but they've been gone off this site for a long time now.

Look at the mating surface and make sure its not nicked or worn or something.

Cool.
Buddha.

[mr72]

I ordered the viton seal, says it's a rotary seal. I figured viton is at least as good as nitrile / buna-n and way better at high heat and chemicals besides oil. I'll double check the crankcase vent when I dig into it this weekend. May also change my valve cover gasket while I'm at it.

I wonder if I ruined the new (current) seal by overfilling the oil and running it that way for a short time. Also guessing if there's fuel in the oil it will slip past the seal much easier. But this thing has been leaking for years. I just ignored it because I figured a slight leak was no big deal. It's a big deal now.

I'll get back once I take it apart. Just guesses now. Day job is slowing me down.

[The Buddha]

High oil - well is it a pressure fitting ? Even so this bike makes dismal pressure when oil is up to temp. I can maybe see the gas ate the seal ... I'll almost bet you had something damage it - look for a clean mating surface on both case and crank. You're now the undisputed crank seal expert here. 2 in 4 yrs pretty much is like 2 more than the nearest next one.

Cool.
Buddha.

[mr72]

haha. I prefer being blissfully ignorant of these kinds of things. But I'll definitely share whatever I learn. I can imagine something went wrong with the installation of this seal but it makes me wonder if there wasn't something wrong to begin with.

[The Buddha]

Some people get "expertise" thrust upon them when chiitte breaks middle of a ride.
Cool.
Buddha.

[mr72]

Well, in that case, you should know I'm also an expert at pushing a GS500 a few blocks home. And given that, it's a good thing my Bonneville is a whole lot more reliable, because I have a hard time pushing it in and out of parking spaces.

[The Buddha]

LOL, plenty of expertise @ pushing I'm sure.

Cool.
Buddha.

[mr72]

Alrighty then.

Just took it apart and first thing I noticed is indeed there was a lot of oil in the little chamber where the signal generator resides. A lot had leaked out. So maybe my theory on ignition is right.

BUT.

Then I drained the oil. And boy howdy. It's at least half gas. The reason for all the "oil" blowing out of the seal was lots of gas in the oil. And the reason for lots of gas in the oil? Too rich probably. Way too rich. Let's hope the running problem wasn't due to low compression from excess wear on the rings and bores due to heavily diluted oil. I haven't ridden it much since changing the jets so hopefully I haven't done a lot of damage.

Anyway, oil change underway, changing the crank seal while I have it apart, and I'll go ahead and pull the carbs off and go back to the 125 jets.

Still no good theory on what was causing the sputtering, especially since going to bigger jets "fixed" it for a short time but then the problem came back and brought a new one with it.

But first things first. I need a more than 1:1 ratio of oil and fuel in the crankcase, so oil and filter change and then carbs in progress. Once I get oil back in it I'm going to do a compression test just for good measure.

This was not what I was hoping for today.

[Meukowi]

dang, sounds terrible, i hate it too when gas overflows to oilpan i've got jet problems too, it's rockin alright, revs good to 11k, but friend told me that when i shift from 1 to 2 there comes black smoke puffs from exhaust, also backfires from carbs, but this is only on hot summer days after 60miles of drive where the bike is almost overheated, so dunno if its worth to go down in jet size 🤔

[The Buddha]

I need a more than 1:1 ratio of oil and fuel in the crankcase,

Yea Oil to fuel should be 1:0 or nearly there of.
You have a overflowing float ... or a direct line from gas tank to motor ...
First issue to be fixed - that gas getting to crank case - forget everything else. That's gotta be fixed. Compression etc etc is all separate - this gotta get sorted.
On the bright side ... gas is a good cleaner, likely it cleaned the crap outta all the crankcase ... OK you rebuilt it, likely clean as a whistle anyway ... But some of those cases I have had with chronic gas in oil cases clean them crankcases like they jus twent to the dental hygienist.

Cool.
Buddha.

[mr72]

Indeed the oil seal was damaged. I don't know how it got this way. Amazing it held any oil.



So I replaced that, replaced the oil filter, and lots of stuff went wrong on my way to get the bike back together.

While the tank was off, one of those little rubber bumpers fell off, so I had to reglue it before I could put it back together. It's drying as of this morning.

Also I pulled the carbs apart to put back the 125 jets. When I originally had this problem with sputtering I was running 127.5 jets and then I bumped to 132.5 and given the fact there was no improvement I decided to go back to the 125s just to get back to a known baseline that should work. While I was swapping the jets I managed to break the rubber T fitting for the fuel overflow line. Good thing I have a spare set of carbs! Also I am guessing the T fitting may have been leaking before, which may explain why I had fuel dripping off the bottom of the carbs occasionally.

So the glue on the tank bumper has to dry today and then I can put the tank back and try it all again. I noticed the tank was also very empty, making me think maybe the reason the thing was dying and wouldn't start was that it was just out of gas! Which I would have never suspected because it was only like 70 miles since I filled it. But if a ton of fuel was blowing into the crankcase then this makes sense. So that's like 20mpg. Jets way too big.

I'm pretty sure I'll get this all together with the 125 jets and it'll still sputter at 9500 rpm but maybe it will get ordinary fuel mileage and keep the fuel from the crankcase, then I can debug the 9500 rpm thing having ruled out mixture.

We shall see. Still waiting to put it together.