Good day,

Last night I was trying to replace some very tight shims in the two from exhaust valve buckets on my son's 04.

After many hours of prying etc, I took the cams off and then popped the shims out of the front. Both were 275's. I installed 260's.

I set the cams back up to what looked like to be the correct setting, bolted it back together and started it up. I was able to easily turn the cams and the crank using the nut on the timing side of the engine.

The motor tuned nicely and with out any abnormal tension. I checked the timing marks and made sure that all was with in spec.

I noticed that I was off a touch on the alignment of the marks.

I released the chain tensioner and turned the motor again. All was good.

I buttoned it back up and started it up, it ran really rough for a few min before it stalled and died. I tried to start it again and no luck.

So this morning I started all over again pulling it apart with the intent of resetting the timing and getting it to run. Well that was the plan.

As I continued to try and dial in the cams I had a one heck of time with the cam chain tension. No matter what I did the chain became so tight that that I could not turn the motor by hand- plugs out and all.

I also notices that one of the can holder dowels is now missing, I fear it fell into the motor and may have hung up the chain on the crank sprocket.

Well looked into the black hole and nothing used my magnet and searched around and nothing came up. I have a very strong suspicion that the dowel is in the motor some where.

I decided to to tray again and pulled the cams out one more time and put them back into place and no matter what I did the I could not move the engine period.

During this fiasco, I noticed that the shim buckets on exh, 1 and 2 would not move, they would not turn freely. Intake 1 and 2 were perfect.

So i am really stuck now, I think I have to pull the ignition side side cover off and find out where the chain is  stuck.

Any suggestions? Anyone run into this before?

Thanks

Did the crank turn freely with the cams removed?

-Jessie

It did but then it stopped. To be honest I got frustrated and worried that I had done some serious damage. Once I got stuck and could no longer turn the crank- after applying some pretty good pressure I just stopped.

What were your clearances when you re fitted the shims? Also if you can't turn the engine you may have gotten your timing out when you re assembled and your valves are hitting the piston. Just thinking aloud here.

Will the motor turn now? Could be two things going on. The dowel is in the sump so that's straightforward enough pull the sump. But and this could or could not be a big but, that dowel fell down and has damaged a gear and then fallen into the sump or that dowel is still stuck there, so you may just have to in either case pull the sump off and have a Bo peep.

The original shims that were in the exhaust buckets were 270 and 275 with zero clearance I switched out the shims and I was .08 and .10.

I have not tried to turn the engine at all since the chain is pretty well stuck, I think the only way to move the chain is move the crank counter clock wise. That is  no no, so not sure what to do. As far as the dowel goes, I have no idea where it could be located.

Do you have a pic of where the sump is located? I guess I should have juts taken it to a shop and let them have at it. I am troubled by the tight shim buckets, that was really odd and very discouraging.

Thanks for thinking and trying to help, just not sure what to do next, look for a used motor or find a shop to rebuild it from the bowels up.

This bike ran right for about a week, then it just started to run badly. Hanging rev's poor power, ride ability, stalling long warm ups. Just not a safe bike for my son to ride.

I had a similar issue with the cam chain.  I think that if the chain is somewhat loose when you try to turn the crank it can kink somewhere and become tight.  In frustration, I carefully turned the crank counterclockwise slowly and got it worked out.  I got it all back together and it worked fine.  I don't think one or two rotations counterclockwise hurts anything.  I'm not sure why they say not to turn that way.  Whatever the case, you need to find that dowel.  Looks like you have to drop the oil pan and take a look.

Thank you very much I will give it a try and let you know. As for the dowel pin, I hope it found it's way to the oil pan.

Very helpful information and suggestions from all that replied.

Thanks

I had a similar process when I did my first valve check and ended up putting it together slightly out of time and bent 2 or 3 of my valves. Since you said it ran rough for a few minutes I am guessing that you were off by one link on the timing. In the future check this like, 10 times that it is exactly how it shows in the manual.

The fact that the engine won't turn over with the cams removed is not very encouraging. Take the oil pan off to start and let us know what you find. You can also try going counterclockwise just a little bit. I've done it with my engine and it still runs fine.

Thanks for the suggestion and hopefully I did not bend any valves! I have not tinkered with it since yesterday morning, I dropped it off a local shop. I trust this shop as they have done work to my VFR, my SV and I have recommend many friends to him as well.

He seemed to be okay with the issue and did not give me any doubts that he could not getting it running. He will get to it Tuesday and let me know.

Next time I will take to the shop. The amount of frustration and anxiety I have faced since last Thursday is not worth the few hundred bucks it would have cost to get the job done right.

Thanks for the feed back and I will let you know what happens.

Did you have a manual when doing this? Between me and the BF it took about 15 labor hours (first time doing it) to rebuild the whole top end. Parts (top end, gaskets, oil, and filter) were about $350. We took pictures during disassemble and while we took our time and measured everything numerous times didn't have an issue.

A few weeks ago I took my tires to the "best shop in town" and they put the rear wheel on backwards. In my mind that wasn't worth the time and money. My bike ended up being down the whole weekend which cost me $60 in gas not to mention the $50 for the work
. When I took them back in all they did was fix it no sorry or anything. Made me even more pissed off when a place doesn't recognize their screw up! At least if I screw it up there is only one person I can be mad at. And I don't like being mad at myself so screw ups don't happen much.

Moral of this long winded story get a manual and double or triple check yourself!
Mary
Mary

Thanks for sharing.

I did have the manual, but my issue was with setting the timing, not to mention two very tight exhaust shim buckets.

I am sure that if I kept working at it I would get it but I realized that I was getting over my head. When I could not locate the dowel, that is when it got nasty. Then when I could no longer turn the motor using the crank, I got very concerned that I had done some serious damage.

In terms of dealing with this bike shop; I guess time will tell.

If it is serious, I will buy a used motor and install it myself for sure. But if he can get it back together with in a few days it will be work the effort.

I am not an expert and if he tells me the only way around the issue is to replace the motor, I will be glad and I will take that step.

If I had the time to do nothing but work on the bike, I would; however, I can't so I am stuck.

I guess time will tell. We bought the bike in March and it ram fine for about two weeks. That is when we had idle and stalling problems. It became a safety problem; one that I did not want to have while my son was ridding.  What ever happens I will be getting rid of next season. Fuel injection v twin or a ninja 650 is in the future.

The main purpose of this bike was to build up my sons confidence and the progress into something bigger and more current.

I must say I am disappointed in myself and the bike; more myself for not really researching this bike before I jumped at it.

Thanks again for sharing, let you know what I hear and I will provide an update.

For future reference, I would advise getting the motion pro suzuki shim tool instead of removing the cams to change the shims.  I made the same mistake of removing the cams instead of getting the right tool when I did mine, and I ending up shearing off a bolt when I reinstalled them.  I did manage to get the timing right though .

Tool has been ordered but the suzuki dealers in Canada are very slow at everything. I have been waiting for two weeks to get one from motion pro through the local suzuki dealer. I figured with the manual and help from this great site, I would be just fine.

I did not expect to have such a tough time with the two exhaust buckets- they still don't turn, so I was doing very well until I had to try and get that timing to set up.

The worst part was that every time I thought I had the timing set up right; I would apply tension to the cam chain and the cams would move. That warning is not documented in the manual. Once the chain is loose the cam lobes will rotate off TDC, then the games begin.

Thanks for the advice and comments

Quote from: merlinq21 on June 04, 2012, 09:11:09 AM
Tool has been ordered but the suzuki dealers in Canada are very slow at everything. I have been waiting for two weeks to get one from motion pro through the local suzuki dealer. I figured with the manual and help from this great site, I would be just fine.

I did not expect to have such a tough time with the two exhaust buckets- they still don't turn, so I was doing very well until I had to try and get that timing to set up.

The worst part was that every time I thought I had the timing set up right; I would apply tension to the cam chain and the cams would move. That warning is not documented in the manual. Once the chain is loose the cam lobes will rotate off TDC, then the games begin.

Thanks for the advice and comments

You can get the tool off of amazon or ebay also, which may be quicker.

Agreed, however, some do not ship to canada and if they do the shipping costs are double or triple the cost of the tool. Hind sight, should have waited because I am sure that the repair will be a significant expense- either a new motor or a rebuild.

Thanks

Cams to move when the chain tightened. I learned that from Bluesmudge.
When he coordinated the making of a new engine (from 4 different ones) for Junior, I kept saying the timing looks right or it looks off. He stayed with his tried and true method: COUNT THE CHAIN LINKS!. Don't look much at the cam ends because they will change when the chain is tightened.
True - he was right. Junior runs perfect thanks to bluesmudge knowing the right way to do it.

You know, that is where I failed in the counting of the links, I missed that part of the step somehow, not sure how but I am sure had I followed that I would have been just fine.

Thanks for the feedback

Not only links, it is making sure you cranked the engine to the correct position. We resorted to a screw driver in the spark plug hole and watched it so we knew when a piston was a top dead center. Buy bluesmudge a plane ticket - he can get the timing back and replace bent valves if no one else can.

Then we manually cranked the engine a few rounds to be sure things were correct.
Then we check the valves - now that everything should be seated properly after manually cranking a few revolutions.

Thanks again,

I thought I had the timing marks lined up properly, the bike did run fir a few min although it idled rough it did run.

Where would I have to fly him from?

next time I will use the stupid tool, if I ever get it that is.

have a great day